14:04 < ryan> hey
14:04 < ryan> one thing we are going to focus on in our analysis of #3
14:04 < ryan> is middleware
14:04 < ryan> so maybe others can do the same
14:20 <@Zapata> explain...
14:24 < toya> hello
14:24 < toya> hello
14:31 < membrana> Hi, I'm from imc-brazil-tech, I'm interested join in project
                  imc-cms with cake, I already entered in the list, I'm reading last
                  emails.
14:34 -!- yossarian [yossarian@3a600c.04ee23.a6ffc6.a65844] has joined #cms
15:00 < ryan> hiiiiiiiiii
15:00 < ryan> hey give me a few minutes
15:00 < ryan> i'm almost done with some stuff
15:00 < ryan> we need
15:01 < ryan> in the meantime, you can browse http://sf.bunke.indymedia.org
15:01 < ryan> for some relevant stuff
15:04 < yossarian> hi ryan, that link doesn't work for me
15:05 < yossarian> server's there but no response on port 80
15:06 < ryan> sorry, apache is down right now
15:06 < ryan> i fucked something up
15:06 < ryan> give me a few more minutes
15:06 < ryan> i'm sorry
15:07 < ryan> if it's any consolation i've been up since 5:30 working on indymedia,
              including getting ready for this meeting
15:07 <@Zapata> nothing like a good start of the cake project
15:07 < ryan> haha shut up zapata
15:07 < ryan> we already have a trac and svn repository
15:07 < ryan> whats your trac url, za?
15:07 < ryan> zap?
15:07 <@Zapata> people that like a _well organized_ effort are free to join the
                plone team tomorrow
15:07 < ryan> http://inhisdreams.org/ ?
15:08 < yossarian> Zapata you plone-ist bastard
15:08 <@Zapata> http://dev.plone.org/plone
15:08 < yossarian> who let him in here anyway
15:08 <@Zapata> down with cake-ism
15:08 <@Zapata> heathens!
15:08 < toya>  /kick Zapata
15:08 < yossarian> shit, none of us are ops
15:08 <@Zapata> :-)
15:08 < yossarian> :)
15:08 <@Zapata> maybe I should put this channel on +m or so
15:09 < ryan> ok ->
15:09 < ryan> http://sf.bunke.indymedia.org/
15:09 < ryan> give me 4 more minutes
15:09 < ryan> and i'm ready
15:09 < yossarian> sure thing
15:09 < ryan> zapata, you should stay and listen
15:09 <@Zapata> I'll lurk
15:09 < ryan> Zapata: i've been struck by inspiration
15:09 <@Zapata> we're migrating brasil's mir right now
15:09 < toya> yah so go back there and leave cake alone :P
15:10 < ryan> Zapata: and now i wanna find out the holes in an otherwise perfect plan15:10 < ryan> ok, finishing..
15:16 -!- yossarian [yossarian@3a600c.04ee23.a6ffc6.a65844] has quit [Ping timeout:
          121 seconds]
15:17 < ryan> ok
15:17 < ryan> i'm done
15:18 < ryan> oh no
15:18 < ryan> yossarian left!!!!!!!!!
15:18 < ryan> did i fuck it up?!
15:18 < ryan> dammit!
15:18 < ryan> YOSSSSSSSARIAN
15:18 < ryan> who else is here?
15:18 < ryan> sim?
15:18 < ryan> simon?
15:19 < ryan> membrana?
15:19 < toya> i am here
15:19 < ryan> well
15:19 < toya> i am in 2 meetings at the same sorry
15:19 < ryan> we need to wait for yossarian
15:19 < ryan> its mostly me and him supposed to be talking about some shit
15:19 < membrana> hi
15:19 < ryan> and we decided to invite everyone
15:19 < ryan> hi membrana :)
15:19 < toya> o membrana tambem esta em duas reunioes
15:20 < ryan> oh yossarian :(
15:20 < ryan> i'm sorry
15:21 < ryan> i just wanted to finish up trac
15:21 < toya> weird
15:21 < toya> he might come back
15:21 < toya> for sure
15:21 [Users #cms]
15:21 [@bertagaz] [@PseudoPunk] [ dannyp    ] [ membrana] [ simon    ]
15:21 [@ChanServ] [@Zapata    ] [ ekes      ] [ qwerty  ] [ skep|away]
15:21 [@occam   ] [ briks     ] [ kwadronaut] [ ryan    ] [ toya     ]
15:21 -!- Irssi: #cms: Total of 15 nicks [5 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 10 normal]
15:21 < ryan> i think so too
15:21 < ryan> but maybe he didnt notice
15:21 < ryan> and got distracted
15:21 < ryan> and forgot about the mtg
15:21 < ryan> because it was 15 minutes late
15:24 -!- yossarian [yossarian@3a600c.04ee23.a6ffc6.a65844] has joined #cms
15:25 < yossarian> sorry bout that, router problems, i missed the last 5 minutes or
                   so
15:26 < toya> we were waiting
15:26 < toya> for you
15:26 < toya> hehe
15:26 < toya> we thougth it was a problem
15:26 -!- Irssi: Pasting 6 lines to #cms. Press Ctrl-K if you wish to do this or
          Ctrl-C to cancel.
15:26 < toya> 15:20 < ryan> oh yossarian :(
15:26 < toya> 15:20 < ryan> i'm sorry
15:26 < toya> 15:21 < ryan> i just wanted to finish up trac
15:26 < toya> 15:21 < toya> weird
15:26 < toya> 15:21 < toya> he might come back
15:26 < toya> 15:21 < toya> for sure
15:26 < toya> hehe
15:27 < yossarian> cool
15:27 < yossarian> will wait for trac
15:27 < yossarian> you want me to send over the db file for the trac i have here?
15:27 < yossarian> there's a bit of documentation done already
15:31 < toya> ok
15:31 < toya> in 2 min we will have logins to trac
15:31 < toya> and we will be good to go :)
15:32 < yossarian> cool
15:32  * yossarian just reading about the SimpleTest framework
15:32 < toya> :))
15:32 < toya> <-in another meeting
15:33 < toya> as well
15:36 < yossarian> are we going to use cake stable or cake pre-beta?
15:36 < yossarian> it looks like the pre-beta has way better support for unit tests,
                   from what i can tell
15:38 < ryan> ok
15:38 < ryan> i'm really sorry everyone
15:39 < ryan> i wanted to have this trac install finished, but bunke is a new machine15:39 < ryan> so installing pythong took forever, etc
15:39 < ryan> now i'm at the last stage, which is setting up authentication to use
              cookie-based sessions
15:39 < ryan> rather than htaccess
15:39 < ryan> but i can do that while we get the meeting going
15:40 < ryan> so here's a run-down of the url's ->
15:40 < ryan> http://sf.bunke.indymedia.org/ -> random info that doesnt quite fit
              into a wiki, everyone will have write access to this
15:41 < ryan> http://cake.bunke.indymedia.org/ -> i think we have a cronjob that
              always updates this with latest cvs, so we can always go and check it
              out, something standard i do
15:41 < ryan> http://dev.bunke.indymedia.org/ -> the trac
15:41 < ryan> i also requested http://svn.bunke.indymedia.org/
15:42 < ryan> sorry about the long urls, occam put his foot down and wouldnt let me
              have the shorter ones
15:42 < toya> hehehe
15:42 < yossarian> probably because he's on the plone project
15:42 < ryan> and something is fucked up at everydns, so i cant change sfimc.net or
              techmeet.org or linefeed right now
15:42 < ryan> yossarian: i agree
15:42 < ryan> so..
15:42 < yossarian> ok i'll start transferring the docs from escaepegoat
15:42 < yossarian> and put those urls on the wiki front page
15:42 < yossarian> sound alright?
15:42 < ryan> yossarian: wait, let me get the login working
15:42 < yossarian> ok
15:43 < ryan> yossarian: so it gives you credit for the edit, etc
15:43 < toya> Zapata stoled him? that easy? tsc tsc tsc
15:43 < ryan> also yossarian: did you install 0.10.4 or 0.11 ?
15:43 < yossarian> .10.4 i think
15:43 < yossarian> it's no big deal to cut and paste, there's not that much
15:43 < ryan> yeah. i'm using both in production
15:44 < ryan> i went with 10.4 for this because we dont really need any of the 0.11
              things
15:44 < toya> is the 10.3 ok?
15:44 < ryan> and 0.11 is missing a lot that we might want
15:44 < toya> ops
15:44 < toya> 0.10.3
15:44 < ryan> unfortuntely, neither of them have internationalization yet
15:44 < ryan> which is extremely lame
15:45 < ryan> so we need to get people accounts on bunke
15:45 < ryan> bunke, btw, is a new machine that got donated to sfccp which is
              allowing linefeed to use it
15:45 < ryan> it is replacing stray as the primary linefeed webserver for indymedia
              sites
15:47 < membrana> and this trac http://escapegoat.org/projects/hyperactive?
15:47 < yossarian> that one's a piece of crap server i am running
15:47 < yossarian> bunke will replace it
15:47 < membrana> ok
15:47 < yossarian> as soon as ryan gets the auth working on bunke i'll start
                   transferring the docs over
15:48 < toya> cool
15:48 < yossarian> simon, you around?
15:52 < ryan> ok
15:52 < ryan> trac should be ready
15:52 < ryan> i havent tested
15:52 < ryan> let's all make accounts
15:53 < yossarian> permissions trouble on the password file
15:54 < membrana> yes
15:54 < ryan> oops
15:54 < ryan> fixing
15:56 < ryan> ok
15:56 < ryan> should work now
15:56 < toya> ok
15:56 < toya> :)))
15:56 < ryan> i am sorting forgetting the quirks of 10.4
15:57 < ryan> because i've been mostly using 0.11
15:57 < ryan> lets see how permissions are
15:58 < ryan> not bad, you should be able to do all the wiki stuff
15:59 < yossarian> working on it
16:00 < ryan> ok
16:00 < ryan> lets put togehter a little agenda so we have some structure
16:00 < toya> alright
16:00 < ryan> theres some little topics i think we should talk about
16:00 < ryan> 1. sfimc thing
16:00 < ryan> 2. communicating w/other groups re: what analyses will look like
16:01 < ryan> 3. version control
16:01 < ryan> 4. development plan of attack
16:04 < toya> that's it
16:05 < yossarian> i think we should all put our skillsets on this page:
16:05 < ryan> good idea
16:05 < yossarian> http://dev.bunke.indymedia.org/wiki/WhoWeAre
16:06 < yossarian> so that we all know who can do what
16:06 < ryan> yeah, totally
16:07 < yossarian> 5. i would like to talk a little bit about london
16:07 < yossarian> agenda looks good, let's get to it, ja?
16:08 < ryan> let me do my skillset thing
16:08 < ryan> and then lets start
16:08 < ryan> i think thats a great idea
16:08 < yossarian> ok, all of the docs are now transferred onto bunke
16:09 < yossarian> i'll get rid of any links that point to escapegoat now
16:15 < yossarian> if anybody has sort of long-winded stuff to say, and they find
                   themselves waiting for others to type stuff during the meeting,
                   it could be smart if they type into a separate text editor during
                   the meeting while theyr're waiting
16:15 < yossarian> that way things go way faster
16:15 < yossarian> i'll do my london thing that way now
16:18 < ryan> yes
16:18 < ryan> ok well i'm almost done with my thing
16:18 < ryan> then we get into it
16:20 < yossarian> ok, i've written my bit about london, i might as well just paste
                   it in here i think, it probably doesn't need much discussion,
                   it's just more of an assessment of where we're at
16:20 < yossarian> London indy is one of the collectives making up Indymedia UK.
                   The london site itself (http://london.indymedia.org.uk) has
                   always suffered from a lack of love, because most of the people
                   involved in London Indy tend to focus more on the national site
                   (http://www.indymedia.org.uk).
16:20 < yossarian> London is a fairly big place with lots going on, but because our
                   London site is basically just a subsite on the UK Mir
                   installation, and nobody pays much attention to it, it is a
                   pretty pathetic site most of the time and doesn't really reflect
                   the city very well.
16:20 < yossarian> In addition, many of the London people have expressed a wish to
                   experiment with new ways of doing things, to try and build a
                   local site that is exciting and offers a better resource for
                   people doing anti-authoritarian political organizing in the city.
                   So this CakePHP effort could offer us an opportunity to try an
                   experimental site alongside of the existing Mir site, and see
                   what we can make of it.
16:21 < yossarian> so basically we can offer an opportunity for a test deployment of
                   the code
16:21 < yossarian> in a live environment
16:22 < ryan> ok, http://dev.bunke.indymedia.org/wiki/ryan
16:24 < yossarian> cool
16:24 < ryan> wait, i dont get it
16:25 < ryan> london imc gets a bad rep because they are supposed to just be for
              london but they act more like a country-wide imc?
16:25 < yossarian> no
16:25 < yossarian> originally, there was only people in london
16:26 < yossarian> this was "indymedia uk"
16:26 < ryan> i'm done messing with trac, btw. this has my full attention now
16:26 < yossarian> in 2003-2003 they made a significant effort to decentralize
16:26 < ryan> hey, is someone logging?
16:26 < yossarian> and formed the "uk network"
16:26 < ryan> for some reason my logging doesnt work
16:26 < toya> i can
16:26 < yossarian> with about 10 collectives
16:26 < yossarian> at this point, there had to be a "london" site
16:27 < yossarian> where previously there hadn't been one
16:27 < yossarian> and most of the people continued to think of themselves as
                   indymedia uk
16:27 < yossarian> almost nobody identifies with the concept of indymedia lonond
16:27 < ryan> i see
16:27 < ryan> so, another question:
16:27 < yossarian> however over the past year people have become more interested in
                   london
16:28 < yossarian> so they're looking to maybe deploy a separate site for it
16:28 < ryan> i had heard from tish that uk imc was doing all kinds of code
              improvements, web 2.0 features, stuf like this. what's the story on
              this from your perspective? uk-imc aded stuff to mir source code?
16:28 < yossarian> basically there's lots of stuff happening in london, and our old
                   codebase (mir) in certain ways doesn't have the tools we want to
                   make a revamped london indy a really interesting project
16:29 < yossarian> i tried to do mir for a while
16:29 < yossarian> it was very educational but quite frustrating
16:29 < yossarian> a whole lotta code, docs not that great
16:29 < toya> yossarian: same thing with brasil - people are requesting things we
              would have to implement on mir, but with the new cms it makes sense to
              go for this
16:29 < yossarian> hard to install
16:29 < yossarian> so i switched to rails
16:30 < yossarian> if you've heard stuff about uk doing "new code" stuff, that's
                   probably the basis of it
16:30 < yossarian> i've got a few codebases working
16:30 < yossarian> the only thing in production at this time is
16:30 < yossarian> http://english.indymedia.dk
16:30 < yossarian> which is an english language site for denmark
16:30 < yossarian> notable features include:
16:31 < yossarian> http://english.indymedia.dk/timeline/timeline
16:31 < ryan> i see
16:31 < ryan> so it has tagging
16:31 < yossarian> tagging
16:31 < yossarian> http://english.indymedia.dk/event_feeds
16:31 < ryan> whoa, that timeline is cool as hell
16:32 < yossarian> and video encoding on the server:
                   http://english.indymedia.dk/publish/show/5
16:32 < ryan> so you are working with someone who knows html/css/dhtml/javascript or
              is that you doing that?
16:32 < yossarian> photos also resize nicely and keep the original
16:32 < toya> hehe all this are on the pending list from brasil imc
16:33 < ryan> cool. and this is just something you busted out in rails?
16:33 < yossarian> note that there are "related events" on the right hand side
16:33 < yossarian> these are built according to what the article is tagged with
16:33 < yossarian> yeah, it's rails
16:33 < ryan> what about this:
16:33 < ryan> so you are working with someone who knows html/css/dhtml/javascript or
              is that you doing that?
16:33 < yossarian> also if you check this out:
                   http://english.indymedia.dk/search/by_tag/repression
16:33 < yossarian> there are "related tags"
16:33 < yossarian> which is cool
16:34 < yossarian> i know almost nothing about html and css
16:34 < yossarian> i stole the template for this from a design site
16:34 < yossarian> and modified it as best i could
16:34 < ryan> i see
16:34 < yossarian> it really slowed me down actually
16:34 < ryan> i do that a lot, also
16:34 < yossarian> because front-end work takes me much longer than it would for
                   somebody who was skilled
16:34 < ryan> it works for me.. linefeed website is totally stolen
16:34 < yossarian> i didn't write the timeline myself, that's an open source project
                   from MIT
16:35 < ryan> when we get into all this for real, it would be nice to have a
              designer/photoshop/dhtml/cs/html person on board
16:35 < yossarian> you can also get a feed by tag
16:35 < yossarian> http://english.indymedia.dk/event_feed/by_tag/g13
16:35 < ryan> that's something linefeed and my volunteer efforts has ALWAYS had a
              problm finding
16:35 < yossarian> basically the site was an experiment in doing away with
                   categorization and replacing it with tags
16:35 < yossarian> i think it works really well
16:36 < yossarian> a friend of mine designed indymedia uk
16:36 < ryan> ok so, you wannt start to go through the agenda?
16:36 < ryan> anyone have anything to add?
16:36 < yossarian> go ahead
16:36 < toya> go
16:36 < ryan> 10:00 < ryan> 1. sfimc thing
16:36 < ryan> 10:00 < ryan> 2. communicating w/other groups re: what analyses will
              look like
16:36 < ryan> 10:01 < ryan> 3. version control
16:36 < ryan> 10:01 < ryan> 4. development plan of attack
16:37 < ryan> so, on #1
16:37 < toya> k
16:37 < ryan> sf-imc used to be one of the most popular, active, innovative IMC's in
              the network. then, during hte ira war protests here, which were quite
              intense, lots of black bloc, lots of secret service and FBI coming
              around us, etc
16:38 < ryan> internal disagreements conributed, of couse, but sometimes we even
              wonder if those were created cointelpro-style
16:38 < ryan> there's some evidence for that
16:39 < ryan> anyway, sf-imc took the worst of the split because there was just a
              large level of harrassent directed at anyone associated with sfimc
16:39 < ryan> you go to a meeting that normally would be find, some jerk is there to
              say you work with sf-imc and they are abusive and they uncomfortable
              working them them, etc
16:40 < ryan> this has gone on for years and happened again just a month or 2 ago
              when we tried to have a techmeet workshop at indyvay-organized
              hackmeet, here in SF
16:40 < ryan> anyway, my point in going througth all this,
16:41 < ryan> is that unless you are REALLY committed to IMC, there's no way in hell
              you would subject yourself to that, especially in some cases the drama
              was making some of our lw enforcement problems become even work
16:42 < ryan> meanwhile, we werent really about stalking/harrassing indybay people,
              so they didnt experience the same thing. but we had severe labor
              attrition as a result of all that
16:42 < ryan> going from like, 15 people in sf-imc
16:42 < ryan> down to like 5
16:43 < ryan> so, we had all these plans about coming out with a super-innovative
              new IMC with new code and give ourselves a reason to have dignity again16:43 < ryan> but then all these fkn server crises happened
16:43 < ryan> and we had to found, organize, setup SFCCP, migrate, etc
16:43 < ryan> so
16:43 < ryan> this is going somwhere, i promise
16:44 < ryan> with techmeet 2007 talking about prototyping the 3 final contenders,
              sf-imc people were excited
16:44 < ryan> and came up with this idea that if this group takes some of the things
              we had wanted to do and puts it into the prototype,
16:45 < ryan> sf-imc would be the live in-producton test for cakephp imc
16:45 < ryan> which i think is a good idea, we can see real people using it
16:45 < yossarian> sounds good
16:46 < ryan> so, partly the goal would be to do our analysis by actually making a
              site that sf0imc cold use, soon
16:46 < ryan> anyway, this was never agreed upon by this little group
16:46  * yossarian raises when you're done
16:46 < simon> hi people. /me reads backlog
16:47 < ryan> so i figured instead of assuming, i would go through this shpiel so
              you understand how it came to be lke this.
16:47 < ryan> thats it. (end) yossarian?
16:47 < yossarian> the only question i have is
16:47 < yossarian> is it a good idea to commit an imc to using it when it might not
                   be selected as the primary imc codebase?
16:47 < yossarian> obviously that's something for sf to decide, just bringing it up
16:48 < yossarian> <end>
16:48 < ryan> yeah, that's why its risky for us
16:48 < ryan> if another cms is chosen, then, we'llwork to migrate to that
16:48 < ryan> but all of our articles and everything have been down for like 8
              months now
16:48 < yossarian> ok, cool, i only ask because we'd be in the same boat in london
16:49 < yossarian> i am all for getting to work and seeing what we can build :)
16:49 < ryan> i think its good, because we can see it live, see people using it...
16:49 < ryan> drupal has this for their analysis
16:49 < ryan> the plone people have this for their analysis
16:50 < ryan> but we dont have a live imc for our analysis
16:50 < ryan> sf-imc could be it
16:50 < yossarian> great
16:51 < ryan> ok cool. i just didnt want to assume everyone was ok with that
16:51 < toya> number 2?
16:51 < ryan> yeah
16:51 < ryan> i can xplain what i mean
16:51 < yossarian> i think everybody is in a mood to run experimental code right
                   now, it's a really exciting time.  2 sounds good
16:52 < ryan> what i mean here is that as we put together our analysis, we should
              share with the other groups what we're looking at
16:52 < toya> 2. communicating w/other groups re: what analyses will look like
16:52 < ryan> and they tell us the same
16:52 < ryan> so when it comes time for the analysis mtg we arent all talking in
              differet directions
16:53 < ryan> that's all i mean by that (end)
16:53  * simon raises
16:53 < ryan> go ahead, simon
16:54 < simon> just pointing out that while it is sensible and fair not to put our
               bucks and pennies on this cake effort when it's not been chosen as
               our one true CMS, as some people on the list think we're heading
               towards, there's still IMCs in a state so bad they'd be better off
               with something intermediary, just so they can even display articles.
16:55 < simon> imc denmark and the potential queer imc are in such situations, so
               I'm willing to think we'd have plenty of prototype websites we can
               draw feedback from, as pointed out in an email to the imc-cms list
16:55 < simon> <end>
16:55 < ryan> to respond:
16:55 < ryan> managing varying versions of prototype sites is gonna be hard. i'm
              working with imc-israel right now because they want to migrate like,
              right now, to a new software
16:56 < ryan> which is sf-active
16:56 < ryan> i dunno, i thik we keep pointing emergency new setups to sfa/mir groups16:56 < ryan> but, what the hell, if simon wants to work with them and do it, more
              power to him
16:57 < ryan> just my opinion
16:57 < ryan> <end>
16:57 < simon> who is them?
16:57 < simon> queer?
16:57 < toya> no i think sfa and mir
16:58  * simon is confused :) never mind
16:58  * toya raises
16:58 < ryan> work with them, them = queer imc
16:58 < ryan> like if you wanna work with them to use the prototype, go for it <end>
16:59  * yossarian raises
16:59 < toya> i think for now it will be hard to spot other things we have going on
              - we are migrating mir sites right now to brasil server and starting
              to work with south america colectives on their mir sites - sharing
              info etc about it's maintanance...this things will continue but all
              are aware of the new imc
17:00 < toya> and we are all postponding many changes to give the new cms a chance
17:00 < toya> done
17:00 < yossarian> ok, it looks like there is enough interest to do three or four
                   live deployments of whatever code we come up with, even before
                   it's written.  when experimenting with rails, i came up with a
                   really good way of managing the problem of site-specific changes,
                   updating multiple codebases, etc.  the english.dk site i showed
                   earlier basically runs as what's called a Rails Engine.  all
                   models, views, and controllers live in a Rails plugin, which is i
17:00 < yossarian> nstalled into a blank rails project.  then i have just overriden
                   any site-specific stuff for the english.dk site (like the banner
                   for example).  this has a big advantage - i update the main
                   codebase, and all sites using the code basically get the changes
                   automatically if they update using svn, keeping their
                   site-specific changes in place.  cakephp has a plugins system,
                   but i haven't yet found out whether you can override all aspects
                   of the m
17:00 < yossarian> odels, views, and controllers like you can in rails.  without
                   getting into a big geek discussion right now, this could be a
                   good thing to try and figure out.  <end>
17:00  * simon raises for a quick one
17:00 < yossarian> go ahead simon
17:01 < simon> quick one: since there's so much interest from people to migrate from
               whatever, we should think of asking people who can afford it to wait
               until the whole imc-cms process has undergone a few weeks of progress
17:01 < simon> <end>
17:01  * toya raises
17:02 < toya> jus tto answer
17:02 < simon> go
17:02 < toya> i am getting the contacts of all imcs to keep them informed about this
17:03 < toya> i will see if more people wants to help with this but the idea is to
              alert people of it, because there are many imcs who wants to migrate
              or upgrade etc
17:03 < toya> done
17:03  * ryan raises
17:04 < yossarian> go
17:04 < ryan> ok, and i see wha yossarian is saying. *especially* if we go forward
              with the architecture ideas i've sent out, would make it easy becaus
              he various imc webservers will only need latest cakephp version
17:04 < ryan> end
17:04 < yossarian> cool
17:04 < ryan> :latest cakephp version" - latest prototype from us
17:05 < yossarian> shall we move to 3. version control?
17:05 < toya> yep
17:05 < ryan> yeah
17:05 < yossarian> SVN!
17:05 < yossarian> SVN!
17:05 < yossarian> SVN!
17:05 < yossarian> heheheh
17:05 < toya> hehehhe
17:05 < ryan> so, yeah
17:06 < ryan> i'll prolly cave into svn
17:06 < yossarian> hahahaha
17:06 < ryan> but let me at least make a case
17:06 < ryan> i only used svn on projects twice, but i mean, its basically a nicer
              cvs, so i get it
17:06 < ryan> cvs i had used for years
17:07 < ryan> right now, i'm running a 6-figure eng project with 7 developers
17:07 < ryan> we use trac and we use bazaar
17:08 < simon> I think nenolod was the one to tell me that bazaar is a little hard
               learning compared to subversion. maybe I'm wrong about this.
17:08 < ryan> so, and this is just anecdotal,
17:08 < ryan> but i believe bazaar has smarter merge/conflict/resolve capabilities
17:08 < ryan> because that happens so much more frequently with bazaar
17:09 < ryan> becase people are off in their own distributed repository
17:10 < ryan> for those who dont know,
17:11 < ryan> the big difference is that svn offers you one repository, usually
              located remotely
17:11 < ryan> with bzr and other distributed vcs's (like mercurial), the respository
              exists locally for you
17:11 < ryan> so you dont even have to be on the internet to commit something
17:12 < ryan> but the main argument i use for bzr is
17:12  * yossarian raises
17:13 < ryan> branching is SO useful
17:13 < ryan> branching should be done all the time
17:13 < ryan> but, cvs/svn makes it hard to branch
17:13 < ryan> it makes it hard to merge branches
17:13 < ryan> so, you tend not to branch
17:13 < ryan> bzr is designed to branch
17:13 < ryan> so all that stuff is easy
17:14 < ryan> bzr makes branching the core concept of the vcs
17:14 < ryan> cvs/svn makes the server repository the core concept of the vcs
17:14 < ryan> ok, i'll (end) for yossarian
17:14 < yossarian> my thinking is that svn is good as there are lots of easy
                   graphical clients for less command-line-oriented people who might
                   need to use it.  one really limiting factor in getting people to
                   contribute to Mir templates in the uk has been the fact that lots
                   of people are totally puzzled by cvs on the command line.  so,
                   people would try and just get the code so that they could modify
                   a template, and that would take them hours because they're not
17:14 < yossarian>  used to the command line.
17:14 < yossarian> then they needed to jump through hoops in order to commit to
                   codecoop (figuring out how to make an ssh key, uploading it,
                   waiting an hour for cron to run).  and they ended up being just
                   really dispirited.  i think this will be partly the case no
                   matter what version control system we use, but i have had really
                   good success teaching people to use (for example) svn  in
                   eclipse, because the process makes sense to them - "oh, that file
                   has been m
17:14 < yossarian> odified, i can see that because it's got a black star next to it,
                   and i can click here to commit it, and here's where i enter my
                   commit message in this little box here."
17:15 < yossarian> i hate merging in svn too, and actually your bzr stuff above
                   makes me want to try it out
17:15 < yossarian> but i am also really conscious of the fact that we need to build
                   a really big developer community
17:15 < yossarian> and svn would in my opinion make that eaiser
17:15 < yossarian> <end>
17:15 < ryan>  i'll go
17:16 < ryan> increased participation is one of my to ppriorities for doing all of
              this
17:16  * simon raises
17:16 < ryan> and so, thats a really convincing argument for me
17:17 < ryan> although, on this project i'm doing, some of the developers had never
              used a vcs before and now they all are champs
17:17 < ryan> but they are also all people familiar with using a unix command line
17:17 < ryan> ok i'm going to (end) for simon and see about gui's for bzr
17:17 < simon> I don't have personal experience with either cvs or bzr, and no
               professional exprience with either of the three. I'll have to learn a
               little either way, so I think ryan just has to consider the learning
               curve for bzr, that's my only concern.
17:17 < simon> end
17:18  * membrana raises
17:19 < yossarian> go
17:19 < membrana> i have working with eclipse an svnplugin for it and phpeclipse or
                  pdt. it's working good for me
17:19 < membrana> i dont now bzr, but i can see it too
17:20 < ryan> membrana: does eclipse work with bzr?
17:20 < membrana> i dont now
17:20 < ryan> -> Optional GUI interface
17:20 < ryan> Bazaar comes with optional GUI interface. This interface is far from
              being perfect or at least bug free, but it is still better than no GUI
              interface at all. If you want GUI, install following packages as well.
17:20 < yossarian> ryan, i just checked, there is no bzr eclipse plugin i don't think17:21 < ryan> so there are a number of bazaar gui's
17:21 < ryan> one of them was sponsored at google summer of code
17:21 < ryan> BUT
17:22 < ryan> i'm having trouble seeing if they really work. no screenshots found
              yet. and for window users, would reuire installing GTK
17:22 < ryan> well, here you go:
17:22 < ryan> http://freshmeat.net/screenshots/61237/65982/
17:23 < simon> would it hurt us to go with svn? I think bzr's seeming ability to
               branch and merge sounds very healthy considering how I usually code,
               but would we be able to migrate to bzr after having launched with svn
               since that seems like a safe bet as we stand?
17:23 < ryan> oh wow
17:24 < ryan> bazaar works with tortoise
17:25 < ryan> which is the easiest-to-use gui for this kind of thing out there. is
              what i setup html/desiner people with when i want to them to start
              using cvs rather than just email usrevised template files
17:25 < ryan> so yossarian
17:25 < ryan> svn has its own GUI?
17:25 < ryan> or there's just a good implementation with eclipse or something?
17:25 < yossarian> there are gui clients for all 3 platforms
17:25 < yossarian> the eclipse integration is fucking fantastic
17:26 < ryan> -> http://bazaar-vcs.org/TortoiseBzr
17:26 < yossarian> like, diff / merge viewer right in the ide
17:26 < ryan> mm
17:26 < yossarian> tortoise is also awesome, but only on windows
17:26 < ryan> do you use an IDE, yossarian?
17:26 < yossarian> yeah, aptana, an eclipse variant
17:26 < yossarian> http://www.aptana.com
17:26 < ryan> whats your dev platform?
17:27 < yossarian> ubuntu 7.10
17:27 < ryan> laptop
17:27 < yossarian> ja
17:27 < ryan> ?
17:27 < simon> ja = yes
17:27 < ryan> and do you download the code to your laptop and work on it there
17:27 < yossarian> yea
17:27 < ryan> mm hm
17:28 < ryan> for me, i have never gotten an IDE to mak me more productive, although
              i've tried numerous times
17:28 < ryan> vim + screen on the remote box is what i use
17:28 < yossarian> radrails is too good not to use for rails work :)
17:29 < simon> ryan, ditto.
17:29 < ryan> this is too alpha? -> https://launchpad.net/bzr-eclipse
17:29 < yossarian> checking it out, hadn't seen that
17:29 < ryan> i mean
17:29 < ryan> what are the top 3 things you get from using an IDE?
17:30 < simon> I do miss an overview of my directory structure and file content.
17:31 < yossarian> i dunno if IDE discussions are where we need to be just now :)
17:31 < yossarian> but basically in rails, an overview of my files
17:31 < yossarian> unit testing super-fast
17:31 < yossarian> mvc generation
17:31 < ryan> we should end it soon but i dont think its a waste of time
17:31 < yossarian> breakpointing
17:31 < yossarian> (for debugging)
17:31 < yossarian> code completion
17:32 < yossarian> class structure overview
17:32 < yossarian> inheritance hierarchy
17:32 < ryan> this type of shit impacts productivity more than one would think
17:32 < membrana> i like refector, code completarion, outiline, debug with
                  breakpoint in eclipse
17:32 < yossarian> and svn integration
17:32 < simon> ryan, what type of shit?
17:32 < ryan> heh.
17:32 < ryan> a good list, yossarian.
17:33 < ryan> simon: "this type of shit" == understanding the details of how we each
              develop
17:33 < yossarian> i dunno how aptana will be for cake development and may try out
                   phpeclipse
17:33 < ryan> fuck, maybe i will try out (AGAIN) an ide for this project
17:34 < yossarian> also good search features
17:34 < ryan> and if i have questions, i come to you
17:34 < yossarian> a complete list of rake tasks
17:34 < yossarian> rails plugin search and installation
17:34 < toya> i only have worked with vim and remote/locally servers
17:34 < ryan> ok so
17:34 < yossarian> rubygem plugin search and installation...
17:34  * yossarian shuts up :)
17:34 < ryan> and yossarian the ide you use is ...?
17:34 < ryan> ok i'm all for subversion
17:35 < ryan> and i'll try to use an IDE for the dev
17:35 < yossarian> http://aptana.com with the radrails plugin (for rails, like i
                   said i'm not sure how it'll be for php although the class browser
                   and svn integration with project overview make it worth it for me)17:35 < ryan> i havent used cvs/svn in oer a year, so i gotta catch up,too
17:36 < yossarian> if anybody's interested, i've written some docs on installing it
                   for rails which also pretty much apply to php
17:36 < yossarian> http://escapegoat.org/2007/9/1/a-non-jedi-approach-for-new-rails-coders
17:37 < ryan> christ, of course they dont make this info easily available on their
              site
17:37 < ryan> is aptana available for mac?
17:37 < yossarian> yeah
17:37 < ryan> oh nice
17:37 < ryan> hey so lets do that really quick before next agenda item
17:37 < ryan> i vote subversion
17:38  * yossarian too
17:38  * membrana too
17:38  * toya too
17:38 < ryan> ok
17:38  * simon too
17:38 < ryan> so
17:38 < yossarian> great
17:38 < ryan> let's do accounts on bunke
17:38 < ryan> we're gonna do
17:38 < ryan> i set up your acct
17:38 < ryan> then msg you here the pw
17:38 < ryan> and you QUICK AS HELL go and change it
17:39 < ryan> cool?
17:39 < yossarian> are you thinking ssh accounts or are you setting up subversion
                   auth?
17:39 < ryan> this is an ssh account for.. whatever
17:39 < ryan> if you want to put something in sf.bunke.indymedia.org
17:40 < ryan> or help with subversion setup
17:40 < ryan> etc
17:40 < yossarian> sounds fine, was just wondering
17:40 < ryan> ok, here we go
17:40  * yossarian fires up a terminal
17:41 < yossarian> ssh yossarian@sf.bunke.indymedia.org is the proper host?
17:41 < toya> bunke.linefeed.org would work
17:41 < ryan> yeah, or just username@bunke.linefeed.org
17:41 < yossarian> ok
17:44 < yossarian> i'm in
17:44 < yossarian> pass changed
17:45 -!- startx [startx@32231d.5ccb40.5b0826.a4e330] has joined #cms
17:46 < yossarian> ah, now the big guns are showing up
17:46 < toya> lol
17:46 < startx> hello
17:46 < yossarian> hi startx
17:46 < yossarian> if you get involved maybe we won't have to work in plone for the
                   rest of our lives
17:47 < startx> i just had a 6hour noborders meeting, so dont count on me
17:47 < startx> haha
17:47 < yossarian> a few more good php coders and we could implement the voltaire
                   strategy: "God fights on the side of the big battalions"
17:47 < startx> so is there a plan yet?
17:47 < ryan> ok so
17:48 < yossarian> we've just picked svn as a vcs
17:48 < ryan> user adding is over
17:48 < ryan> if more are needed later, we can do it
17:48 < yossarian> i will msg startx with the basic story so far
17:48 < ryan> also, you all gotta log back in :)
17:48 < ryan> i need to add you to dev group
17:51 < yossarian> logged out and in
17:52 < ryan> ok, i just need to set the irght group permissions and we're all set up17:52 < startx> are you guys talking about trac right now?
17:52 < simon> startx, SSH.
17:52 < startx> ah
17:52 < yossarian> startx, you can make yourself a trac login
17:52 < yossarian> http://dev.bunke.indymedia.org/register
17:54 < startx> yo, done
17:54 < yossarian> cool
17:54 < yossarian> ryan, when you get a chance can you make an ssh account for
                   startx? that way he won't start coding plone by accident
17:55  * startx sees very little chance of becoming involved in plone
17:56 < yossarian> even better
17:56 < yossarian> btw startx we have decided to code this in ruby
17:56 < yossarian> you still in?
17:56  * yossarian just kidding
17:56 < ryan> ok
17:56 < ryan> i think everyone has the irght permissions, but i gotta quit fucking
              with it
17:57 < ryan> back to this
17:57 < startx> nice domain model chart, will put it on my wall instantly ... ;)
17:57 < ryan> so we are decided on subversion
17:57 < ryan> but yossarian i think the deal is you gotta set it up
17:58 < ryan> i installed via ports
17:58 < yossarian> ok
17:58 < yossarian> lemme see
17:58 < ryan> i guess you need root
17:58 < yossarian> do people want to start looking at the features we want? that's
                   on the wiki...i guess we are up to deciding the "plan of attack"
                   for coding...
17:59 < ryan> yeah, i wanna talk about the plan of attack
17:59 < ryan> i gotta pee though
17:59 < ryan> yossarian: let me give you root on bunke
17:59 < ryan> and you can start poking aorund with subversion install
18:00 < yossarian> ok
18:01 < ryan> yossarian: it is in /home/yossarian/.rootpw, please delete etc
18:01 < yossarian> should i put the repo in /var/svn/XXXXX?
18:01 < yossarian> and what is the project called?
18:01 < yossarian> for the one on escapegoat, i set it up as "hyperactive"
18:01 < startx> i like "hyperactive"
18:02 < ryan> eh, i think just cake
18:02 < ryan> is good
18:02 < yossarian> ok, that's fine with me for now
18:02 < ryan> install where you think fit
18:02 < yossarian> i don't feel like going through the ten-hour naming process :)
18:03 < ryan> ok, bathroom break for me
18:03 < ryan> win 21
18:03 < startx> active -> sf-active -> hyperactive ;)
18:03 < toya> hehe me neither, cake is short and easy for now
18:03 <@Zapata> I've got a great name for the new indymedia cms:
18:03 <@Zapata> plone
18:03 <@Zapata> :-p
18:04 [Users #cms]
18:04 [@bertagaz] [@PseudoPunk] [ dannyp    ] [ membrana] [ simon    ] [ toya     ]
18:04 [@ChanServ] [@Zapata    ] [ ekes      ] [ qwerty  ] [ skep|away] [ yossarian]
18:04 [@occam   ] [ briks     ] [ kwadronaut] [ ryan    ] [ startx   ]
18:04 -!- Irssi: #cms: Total of 17 nicks [5 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 12 normal]
18:04 < toya>  /kick Zapata
18:04 < yossarian> ok, repo set up
18:05 < yossarian> how does svnserve work in bsd?
18:05 < yossarian> that's the next question
18:07 < yossarian> another question: should we use cake stable? or the pre-beta?
18:07 < yossarian> or plone?
18:08 < ryan> i thought we're using plone?
18:08 < ryan> wtf?
18:08 < startx> i tend to the beta. it will be stable until we really finished
18:08 < yossarian> the beta does seem to have better unit testing support
18:08  * startx shit, i bought that ruby book today ... is cake not ruby?
18:09 < ryan> lets see
18:09 < yossarian> cake is ruby smeared with cat-vomit :)
18:09 < ryan> i forget what i'm running for this job
18:09 < ryan> let me see
18:09 < simon> startx, yes, cake is ruby, just in php. ;-P
18:09 < simon> s/ruby/rails/
18:09 < startx> ruby with bytecode compiler
18:10 < startx> ;)
18:10 < yossarian> ryan, it let me try an import once i know which version to use
18:10 < startx> seriously .. lets have a look what cakes release plan is
18:11 < yossarian> it may be the case that since we're using svn+ssh, that svnserve
                   fires up automatically when we login via ssh to do a commit
18:11 < yossarian> at least that's how it works on debian i think
18:11 < ryan> ok
18:11 < ryan> you mean how the fbsd ports process set it up?
18:11 < yossarian> yeah, in theory
18:11 < yossarian> so if we can settle on a cake version, i can try and import it
18:12 < yossarian> or i guess i can just import a txt file as a test
18:12 < yossarian> one sec
18:12 < ryan> well, dunno who familiar you are w/freebs
18:12 < ryan> but
18:12 < ryan> freebsd put a file called svnserve in /usr/local/etc/rc.d
18:12 < ryan> this is the file you use to start/stop it svnserver [start|stop|etc]
18:12 < yossarian> ok cool
18:12 < ryan> although, you should append 'one' before start and stop, because you
              are doing it after boot
18:13 < ryan> so you would do /usr/local/etc/rc.d/svnserve onestart
18:15 < yossarian> working on an import now
18:15 < ryan> ok
18:15 < yossarian> ok i need a user for svn
18:15 < yossarian> usually i set mine up as "svnowner"
18:15 < ryan> ok
18:15 < yossarian> and chown the repos to that user
18:16 < yossarian> can somebody figure out the cakephp beta release schedule while
                   we're screwing with this stuff?
18:17 < simon> I'll ask
18:17 < yossarian> cool
18:17 < ryan> i've been hanging in #cakephp
18:17 < simon> me too
18:18 < simon> @freenode, for everyone's information
18:19 < ryan> ok, so you've seen *THEIR* trac, right?
18:19 < ryan> https://trac.cakephp.org/
18:19 < yossarian> in freebsd how do i add a user "svnowner" without a home directory18:19 < yossarian> i assume i don't wanna make a home dir for this user
18:20 < ryan> looks like a lot of work before 1.2 is ready
18:20 < yossarian> -M ?
18:20 < yossarian> i'll try that
18:21 < ryan> oh yossarian, sorry
18:21 < ryan> i dunno actually
18:21 < yossarian> done
18:21 < ryan> use adduser
18:21 < yossarian> yep
18:22 < yossarian> it's still asking me where the home dir should go
18:22 < ryan> can i see the error exactly?
18:22 < ryan> i have installed svn before a few times
18:22 < yossarian> i'm still in the adduser interactive procees
18:23 < yossarian> bunke# adduser svnowner -M
18:23 < yossarian> Username: svnowner
18:23 < yossarian> Full name:
18:23 < yossarian> Uid (Leave empty for default):
18:23 < yossarian> Login group [svnowner]:
18:23 < yossarian> Login group is svnowner. Invite svnowner into other groups? []:
18:23 < yossarian> Login class [default]:
18:23 < yossarian> Shell (sh csh tcsh bash rbash nologin) [sh]:
18:23 < yossarian> Home directory [/home/svnowner]:
18:23 < yossarian> i'm stopped there for now
18:23 < yossarian> on linux, -M sets up no home directory
18:24 < ryan> just put nothing
18:24 < ryan> for Home firectory
18:24 < yossarian> ok, it'll make /home/svnowner then
18:24 < ryan> oh eyah
18:24 < ryan> i dunno
18:24 < yossarian> i dunno how much it matters to you
18:24  * toya sorry a little distracted
18:25 < ryan> make the use and then rm -rf /home/svnowner
18:25 < startx> do we start a mailing list as well?
18:25 < yossarian> ryan, sounds good
18:25 < toya> hey you can loging to svn with ssh
18:25 < ryan> startx: we have one!
18:25 < toya> using you ssh user
18:25 < yossarian> ryan,
18:25 < yossarian> Use password-based authentication? [yes]:
18:25 < yossarian> should i say no here?
18:26 < ryan> startx: http://mail.linefeed.org/lists/listinfo/cake
18:26 < ryan> say yes
18:26 < yossarian> ok
18:26 < yossarian> Use an empty password? (yes/no) [No]
18:26 < ryan> no
18:26 < yossarian> probably not
18:27 < yossarian> use a random password?
18:27 < toya> :win 23
18:27 < yossarian> i assume we don't want anybody logging into this box as svnowner
18:27 < yossarian> Lock out the account after creation? [no]:
18:27 < ryan> yossarian: the pws i gave you guys were random
18:27 < ryan> dont lock out
18:28 < yossarian> ok
18:28 < yossarian> done
18:28 < ryan> so
18:28 < ryan> i've been checking out cake's roadmap
18:28 < ryan> the thing is, 1.2 isn't that impressiv
18:29 < ryan> mostly fixing some UI problems and fixing a bunch of bugs
18:29 < ryan> but whatever, it's solid
18:30 < ryan> so i'd lke to spend 10-15 mins talk about my emails
18:30 < ryan> and after that, we'll have an idea of each other's dev thoughts
18:30 < yossarian> go for it, and i'll keep messing with svn
18:30 < ryan> and can make plans of what to do for like, the next week
18:30 < ryan> ok cool
18:31 < ryan> ut shit, i'm gonna start in 5 minutes, IRL thing happening
18:31 < yossarian> if everyone types up some thoughts about what they would like to
                   see in terms of features, code, etc., while ryan is saying his
                   bit, then that will save a lot of time
18:36 < ryan> ok
18:36 < ryan> i can get that going
18:36 < ryan> i got a story to tell
18:41 < ryan> so
18:42 < ryan> ok, so my job level or whatever is executive-level engineering manager
18:42 < ryan> something i fought my way up to over 10 miserable years :)
18:42 < ryan> coming from ohio where my careeer path was that i would work at the
              steelmill like my dad when it turned 18
18:43 < ryan> but there was this thing, nafta, which made that career path not
              possible in ohio, ec
18:43 < yossarian> you are a nafta success story!
18:43  * yossarian still fucking with svn permissions
18:43 < ryan> just to say, i'm exec-level manager but i'm still just as much a
              programmer and sysadmin and worker
18:44 < ryan> unlike many exec-level managers who come from a rich background, went
              to the right schools, has no experience managing or even working
18:45 < ryan> so, that said, i was director of eng at tagged.com, head of the eng
              deprtment, of 5-25 engineer or so at differnt times
18:46 < ryan> and at that time, tagged.com was in the "circuit" of dot com social
              networking startups
18:46 < ryan> like, friendster had just died because it couldnt scale
18:46 < ryan> so all these big socal network site people know each other
18:46 < ryan> and their scaling strategies were secret
18:47 < ryan> it was a time when everyone as trying to figure out how to handle
              exponential user growth
18:48 < ryan> because through the use of importers, clever invite schemes, etc
18:48 < ryan> they would push 30 - 100k new users/day for a slow site, 150k-250k for
              a highly successful site
18:49 < ryan> and it would come in unpredictable bursts
18:50 < ryan> anyway, point is, tagged come up with its architectural solution
              (basically me and the CTO) and i cant tell you what it is, but it works18:50 < ryan> it guarantees you will never scale out, logically
18:51 < ryan> but it requires a lot of money. they had $9 million and plus some from
              mayfield
18:51 < ryan> but, we had a plan B at tagged
18:51 < ryan> which was to develop a unch of python daemons (under the theory that
              php doesnt do daemons well)
18:52 < ryan> and these daemons would be a stripped-down app server
18:53 < ryan> you could request data, save to the db, get cached info
18:53 < ryan> and this solves php's main drawbacks -- lack of persistant object
              stores, etc
18:54 < ryan> but, we never did it
18:54 < ryan> lot of companies like yahoo, google, flickr, a bunch of sites like thi
18:55  * yossarian still have svn repo permissions problems by the way
18:55 < ryan> i know the eng's of mgmt so i know their approaches
18:55  * yossarian not sure why as user "svn" which i'm using can create shit in
          /var/svn without problems
18:56 < ryan> i THINK this cakephp thing i emailed about is the absolute best out of
              all of tem
18:56 < ryan> even if you HD a ton of money, you would want to do it this way
18:56 < ryan> yossarian: can i help?
18:56 < yossarian> yeah but maybe finish what you're saying so others can say what
                   they want to say
18:57 < ryan> oh ok, i was just teling the story while you worked on your thing
18:57 < ryan> thats it really
18:57 < yossarian> ok, maybe somebody else wants to talk about objectives and you
                   and i work on this svn problem?
18:57 < ryan> i want to hear feedback and problems with this architecture from you
              guys
18:57 < ryan> end
18:58 < yossarian> membrana, simon, toya, startx - do any of you have ideas you want
                   to talk about?  what you'd like us to accomplish?
18:59 < ryan> or maybe what brings you here? whats your interest in cakephp as an
              option for imc cms project?
19:00 < startx> i havent read the whole chat (i joint late) so i dont want to repeat
                everything youve might have said
19:01 < toya> well
19:01 < toya> i am new to a lot of things but looking at this architecture it really
              could be what indymedia needs
19:02 < toya> in terms of resources and garantees for security etc
19:02 < toya> this could also help us with one big problem
19:02 < toya> since ahimsa left
19:02 < toya> the bandwitdh one
19:03 < toya> i really like to think of having indymedia tech part organized in such
              a way, it was our mean goal on discussions techmeet 2006
19:03 < toya> done
19:03 < yossarian> can somebody send startx the log?
19:03 -!- luisfelipe [lfelipe@2a3532.942a78.ae2690.311455] has joined #cms
19:04 < toya> startx: i am loggin i send to you part of it
19:04 < startx> toya: thx
19:04 < toya> startx: should i past it here on pvt?
19:04 < toya> startx: i will post it to the wiki later
19:04 < yossarian> i'll go next i guess while ryan looks around
19:04 < yossarian> basically i just think we are way behind in terms of features
19:05 < yossarian> so much so that a lot of the fun of indymedia gone away
19:05 -!- drebs [drebs@2a3532.b1db7f.888a26.46f13a] has joined #cms
19:05 < yossarian> there are so many cool things that we could have, but don't
19:05 < yossarian> so i am really interested in trying to work on that
19:05 < yossarian> i am also really interested in the idea of a distributed
                   architecture
19:06 < yossarian> but i would want that to come after we actually get something
                   visible running
19:06 < yossarian> because i would be worried that we'd build some great system of
                   distributed sites
19:06  * startx agrees about distributed architecture
19:06 < yossarian> and not have anything people could actually see and buy into
19:07  * simon agrees with yossarian about that priority.
19:07  * toya raises
19:07 < yossarian> in terms of features, i've written a calendar system (based on
                   similar code to the english.dk site) but i don't have anywhere to
                   deploy it.  i am very interested in incorporating a calendar
                   built-in for any future indy site, since we always get so many
                   "come here to this event" articles in the newswire.  i would like
                   to be able to link Article reports to the calendar events.
19:07 < yossarian> london sees the calendar as quite important
19:07  * membrana raises
19:07 -!- diogo [diogo@3dc69a.319bf9.541637.75cf70] has joined #cms
19:07 < yossarian> i also think that we need to take permissions and access-levels
                   very seriously
19:07 < simon> yossarian, denmark also depends badly on a good calendar.
19:08 < yossarian> because there are major political gains to be made in terms of
                   site admin
19:08 < yossarian> like, if we have a quite large bunch of user roles
19:08 < yossarian> we can work people up from anonymous, to contributors, to people
                   who can hide stuff, to people who can publish features
19:09 < yossarian> in saying this, i still think that anonymous contributions are
                   sacred
19:09 < yossarian> but i think that we would see a major increase in "keeping the
                   site clean" activity if we could broaden the pool of available
                   admins
19:09 < yossarian> <end>
19:10 < yossarian> go ahead toya
19:10 < toya> i agree with the features problem, but i do believe we havent had a
              way to inovate the code yet, because our structure, that was why
              people come out with this cms idea on techmeet 2006, cuz this wont
              work anymore
19:10 < toya> so seen all this mobilization
19:10 < toya> all this needs
19:10 < toya> and all the mistakes we have made
19:10 < toya> and to think of having indymedia around no matter how much the
              internet laws changes
19:11 < toya> and still have a life :P
19:11  * ryan raises
19:11  * startx raises
19:11 < toya> i would like to take this mobilization into something that we can
              really makes this network more stable, more colaborative
19:11 < toya> otherwise we will kill ourselves, so i know the main thing that
              motivated us
19:11 < toya> was the need for the features the people complainning about it etc
19:12  * yossarian raises
19:12 < toya> but this other part is to think futher than that
19:12 < toya> done
19:12 < yossarian> go ahead membrana
19:12 < membrana> Ok about me, I have involved more with the issues of imc-tech
                  brazil  and I think we need taking part in the development of our
                  cms. I dont have much experience with enginier architecture but I
                  think this architecture distribuited that ryan talk is great. I
                  think we need security issues, escalabilidace and innovations. I
                  have worked with some projects that implementavam mvc too and I
                  think it can work here with cake.
19:13 < membrana> io agree toya about  to take this mobilization into something that
                  we can really makes this network more stable, more colaborative
                  and we will happy
19:13 < membrana> end
19:14 < startx> ryan?
19:14 < ryan> sorry, trying to fix svn install, 30 seconds
19:14 < yossarian> go ahead in the meantime startx
19:14 < startx> ok
19:14 < startx> i agree with almost everything said here :) especially with toya
19:15 < startx> what i wish for a new cms:
19:15 < simon> (were we going to lay out our ideas about features here, or on the
               wiki?)
19:15 < startx> a highly configurable system, so imcs can choose which features they
                want and which they dont
19:15 < ryan> ok
19:15 < ryan> oh
19:15 < ryan> go ahead
19:16 -!- scout [scout@3a600c.dc08a9.dae669.15444c] has joined #cms
19:16 < ryan> scout! :D
19:16 < startx> also i would like to see very flexible system to exchange
                information/data between imcs, like import/export of events, articels19:16 < scout> oi oi
19:16  * simon raises
19:16 < yossarian> toya, can you give the logs to scout?
19:17 < toya> yossarian: should i past this to them or just post later on the wiki?
              i havent past to startx yet
19:17 < startx> another thing i dream of: a fantastic search engine for imc sites, i
                once discussed with some people to use beagle for that (to index
                media as well)
19:17 < startx> beagle indexes -> cakephp frontend
19:17 < startx> soemthing like this
19:17 < startx>  /end
19:18 < yossarian> go ahead ryan
19:18 < ryan> ok
19:19 < ryan> first i agree 1000% with whoever said that configurabilty should be
              built in from the beginning
19:19 < ryan> not an easy task so something to consider at the beginning
19:19 < ryan> 2) basically we are charged with 2 tasks in november:
19:20 < ryan>   a) make a prototype/demo site
19:20  * simon lowers
19:20 < ryan>    b) thnk deeply about this project and do in-depth analysis
19:20 < ryan> so, sf-imc way back before we got sucked into the server crisis, had a
              simple idea for restructuring the traditional imc model a little bit
19:21 < ryan> basicaly, it allowed users if people wanted them
19:21 < ryan> and it allowed those users to join newscrews
19:21 < ryan> and it allowed users to, like, have a page which lists all the media
              they've published, etc
19:21 < ryan> so, some new features, but nothing too dramatic
19:22 < ryan> i think a major advanage of rapid ap development is the ability to do
              prototyping
19:22 < ryan> doesnt take that long to code something, you can experiment, you can
              prototype
19:22 < ryan> and we need something by like dec 1
19:23 < ryan> and sf-imc is depending on us to help them  out because they've been
              offline for 8+ months
19:23  * simon raises
19:23 < ryan> so, i think a good plan of action is this
19:23 < ryan> 1) create a db schema that mimics the existing sf-active,
19:23 < ryan> 2) add in some of these features sf-imc has wanted forever,
19:24 < ryan> 3) crank it out using cakephp's amazing framework,
19:24 < ryan> 4) bang on this thing to expose problem, weaknesses, whatever
19:24 < ryan> 5) let sf-imc go back online while we conintue the research
19:25 < ryan> 6) in the meanwhile think deeply about architecture decisions and
              prepare a really good analysis for dec 1st
19:25 -!- luisfelipe [lfelipe@2a3532.942a78.ae2690.311455] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
19:25 < ryan> and i think that is what this group could do with november ;)
19:25 < ryan> i've been braging i could recode sfa in a weekend with cake
19:25 < ryan> i would like to execute on that challenge ;) with anyone who wants to
              help, of course
19:26 < ryan> one last thing -
19:27 < ryan> dunno how deep your experience has been with doing day-to-day server
              support for 20+ IMCs... yossarian i think you do this, right? anyway,
              the distributed network stuff is what REALLY makes it possible for the
              burden to be taken off our chest
19:27 < ryan> and the setup for all this isnt THAT compicated
19:27 < ryan> so, i agree its not something we have done in the prototype or near
              dec 1st
19:28 < ryan> but *is* something we build out as part of our proposal and analysis
19:28 < ryan> and if we go with option #3, it would be included from the beginning
              in development
19:28 < ryan> (end)
19:29 < yossarian> who's next? toya?
19:29 < yossarian> membrana?
19:29 < membrana> ok, so we will make prototype in november and sfimc can  already
                  start to use this prototype in dec and then we go ahead
19:29 < simon> shuffle the stack
19:29  * yossarian ryan's plan sounds fine to me by the way
19:30 < simon> yeah, I was gonna repeat some of the things ryan said with my own
               words, but I think it's somewhat needless. looking forward to
               contributing feature suggestions
19:31 < yossarian> ok, while we mess with svn maybe people can start writing up
                   feature ideas on the wiki? or should we just start entering
                   tickets into trac
19:31 < yossarian> ?
19:32 < simon> I'd go with wiki
19:32 < simon> we probably have some of the same ideas, we could unite them
19:32 < ryan> ewll
19:32 < ryan> well
19:32 < toya> ok i will upload the log
19:33 < simon> whoops, isn't the feature list already somewhat present on
               http://dev.bunke.indymedia.org/wiki/WhatWeHaveAndWhatWeWant ?
19:33 < ryan> i'd like to jump right into mysql table definitions - so the wiki
              pages will look like (1) narrative description of second, (2) proposed
              mysql db table
19:33 < simon> ryan, were you thinking of descriptions or what
19:33 < ryan> because if we have all of #2 ..
19:33 < ryan> using cake to develop this will FLY
19:34 < ryan> because that is where cake starts to build scaffolding and stuff
19:34 < simon> ryan, have you started with any of the tables?
19:35 < ryan> simon: mmm not realy, but they are in my head
19:35 < simon> are we encouraged to just add our thoughts to the wiki?
19:36 < ryan> yes, i think wiki should be a free-for-all on feature ideas
19:36 < ryan> BUT
19:36 < ryan> towards the dec 1 prototype,
19:36 < simon> ryan, I've made a couple of tables for article and tag systems, but I
               think the tag one is insufficient for a distributed model.
19:36 < ryan> some things will be necessary
19:36 < ryan> and other things wont
19:36 < simon> ryan, and a non-distributed tag model is so  simple anyone could
               write it in one go.
19:36 < yossarian> we can prioritize features into trac milestones, i think
19:36 < simon> yep
19:37 < yossarian> but we need to write them down first
19:37 < ryan> yossarian: yeh
19:37 < yossarian> ok i gotta go cook some food
19:37 < ryan> i mithin milestone #1, due dec 1st, would just say "1. 90% of
              sf-active functionality, 2. 90% of sf-imc feature requests"
19:37 < yossarian> will be in and outtahere for a little while
19:38 < yossarian> do people want categories?  i am really anti-category and pro-tag
                   these days
19:38 < yossarian> but that's just me
19:38 < ryan> agreed tags are better than categories
19:39 < yossarian> anybody else have opinions on this?
19:39 < ryan> maybe that's an example of something we change, to show some level of
              innovation with cake
19:39 < ryan> not only did we rewrite sfa, but we improved on it
19:39 < yossarian> the tags have worked really well on english.dk, you can get a
                   great overview just from looking at the tag cloud
19:39 < ryan> well so how about this, i'll set up milestone #1 on tra
19:39 < ryan> and kind of itemize in there
19:40 < simon> yossarian, I don't have experience with tags, but it's my impression
               that tag systems can be polluted if the system doesn't have enough
               users.
19:40 < ryan> the different standard sfa components
19:40 < ryan> and we can see what we have
19:40 < simon> yossarian, a great thing about tags is of course that they are
               automatically managed by article writers
19:41 < yossarian> yeah, that's why i like them - in the uk i think our categories
                   don't really correspond with what people are writing about
19:42 < yossarian> i think we'll have enough users
19:42 < simon> yossarian, maybe with more network-wide tags you can minimize the
               power of provocateurs on less active IMCs.
19:42 < ryan> ok,well, i'm going to get to work on svn and the trac
19:42 < yossarian> ah, i see what you're saying
19:42 < yossarian> well, i would think it's up to the site admins to hide articles
                   that suck anyway
19:42 < ryan> i'll try to be very disciplined to write what i'm doing to the list
19:43 < simon> yossarian, e.g. people can add all sorts of crap if they like, and
               it'll only be ignored if proportionally significant enough more
               people write sensible stuff. (you may know this from stupid tags on
               slashdot)
19:44 < simon> quick question: Under WhatWeHaveAndWhatWeWant, it says that we have
               anonymous open publishing. where do we have that? just curious.
19:44 < startx> i think anonymous refers to "publishing without login" here
19:44 < ryan> man
19:44 < ryan> i'm so excited
19:44 < yossarian> yeah
19:45 < ryan> for me, i live and work over here
19:45 < yossarian> with a bit of bake, we should have something running by the end
                   of tomorrow
19:45 < ryan> and i gotta see these assholes
19:45 < ryan> bragging about their "web 2.0" site that IS SO FUCKING STUPID
19:45 < ryan> and hear them talk about how its revolutionary and will change the
              world
19:45 < simon> ryan, sounds like CTO talk :)
19:45 < startx> :)
19:46 < simon> startx, ah
19:46 < ryan> and i want to grab them and be like "NO A GLOBAL NEWS NETWORK RUN BY
              THE CAPITALIST OPPOSITION IS REVOLUTIONARY, YOUR STUPID THING IS JUST
              MORE COMMERCIAL GARBAGE THAT NO ONE WANTS"
19:46 < yossarian> well, if you can code up some shit tomorrow, you can do that on
                   monday morning
19:46 < ryan> we gotta outpace these guys again
19:46 < simon> will anyone second startx's impression of what was meant by anonymous
               in the context anonymous open publishing? since we'd want real
               anonymity, too.
19:47 < ryan> we cant let them have better websites than us
19:47 < yossarian> ryan, i agree :)  let's kick some capitalist ass