ira 10 19:10:10 Zapata welcome everybody to the meeting on the Sao Paulo CMS proposal... ira 10 19:10:11 toya the agenda for the meeting? ira 10 19:10:22 Zapata I've compiled an agenda... hang on... ira 10 19:10:32 toya ok ira 10 19:10:53 Zapata http://techmeet.sarava.org/English/CMS20060910MeetingAgenda ira 10 19:11:06 Zapata he goal of this meeting will be to: ira 10 19:11:06 Zapata * Rally people behind the project ira 10 19:11:06 Zapata * Establish some structure for the project ira 10 19:11:06 Zapata * Set the implementation of the project in motion by defining and assigning the first tasks ira 10 19:11:20 Zapata Agenda: ira 10 19:11:20 Zapata 1. Introduction ira 10 19:11:20 Zapata 2. A clarification on the proposal, including a definition of the goal and opportunity for Q&A ira 10 19:11:20 Zapata 3. Definig the first tasks: organization, CMS survey ira 10 19:11:21 Zapata 4. Structuring the CMS requirements lists ira 10 19:11:23 Zapata 5. Establish CMS review procedure ira 10 19:11:25 Zapata 6. CMS brainstorm ira 10 19:11:31 Zapata 7. CMS review assignments ira 10 19:11:33 Zapata 8. Mailing list, Wiki ira 10 19:11:35 Zapata 9. Next meeting ira 10 19:12:05 Zapata I would appreciate it if someone else would volunteer to moderate... ira 10 19:12:24 ryan what the hell, i'll do it ira 10 19:12:43 Zapata well ira 10 19:13:08 Zapata I figured you and I were gonna do most of the talking... but if you want to, it's fine by me ira 10 19:13:21 ryan well, anyone else? otherwise i'll do it ira 10 19:13:56 ryan its ok, i know how to moderate & talk at the same time ira 10 19:14:10 Zapata ok ira 10 19:14:17 ryan ok lets start with one-sentence introductions ira 10 19:14:39 ryan i'll go in alphabetical order in the channel, get your intro ready so you just have to hit enter, please ira 10 19:14:42 ryan i'll start ira 10 19:15:27 ryan i'm ryan -- i work with sf indymedia for 6 years now, also global tech, also linefeed (parallel group). i've worked with sf-active and i was in sao paulo for techmeet, i'm all for combining forces and easing the burden on people doing stuff now ira 10 19:15:31 ryan end ira 10 19:15:42 ryan Zapata: you're next in reverse alphabetical ira 10 19:16:10 Zapata I'm Zapata aka Max. I'm a member of indymedia netherlands / contribute to the mir CMS / involve myself with various other informal indymedia stuff ira 10 19:16:16 ryan zak? ira 10 19:16:24 Zapata end ira 10 19:16:33 zak i'm zak, part of imc uk for about 3 years, and one of the traven (mir hosting server) admins ira 10 19:16:37 <ryan> txopi? ira 10 19:16:52 txopi i'm txopi. i collaborate in basque imc. we use kosmos ira 10 19:16:58 ryan toya? ira 10 19:17:03 toya i am toya from imc-brasil was in the techmeet ira 10 19:17:04 txopi sorry, we use mir at kosmos ira 10 19:17:16 ryan sandoz? ira 10 19:17:31 sandoz i am jan based in Berlin. New to indymedia, but have friends there. I am interested in the indymedia 2.0 process have some visions about. ira 10 19:17:36 ryan RobBoston? ira 10 19:17:38 RobBoston Rob from Boston, MA, US, previously with Boston Indymedia for 3 years as web admin among several other internal roles. ira 10 19:17:41 ryan rhatto? ira 10 19:17:50 rhatto i'm rhatto, doing tech stuff for brasil.indy since 2001 and host a few other imcs; end ira 10 19:18:00 ryan rebe| ira 10 19:18:01 rebe| I'm rebe| from denmark. Been acitve for little more than a year. Not very technical though. We're currently looking for a cms to replace our current oscailt 2.0. I'm interested in the development and therefore a spectator here. [end] ira 10 19:18:08 ryan nah ira 10 19:18:19 nah i'm nah from imc-brasil ira 10 19:18:25 ryan maxigas_ ira 10 19:18:36 ryan maxigas_ is idle as hell ira 10 19:18:39 ryan kwadronaut? ira 10 19:19:04 ryan as is kwadronaut ira 10 19:19:06 ryan Kvn? ira 10 19:19:08 Kvn Kevin.. admin with worcester indymedia 2+ years -100% Non-techie -- really glad to see CMS changes coming ira 10 19:19:13 ryan init ira 10 19:19:24 init hi, I'm init, I'm from Berlin, IMC-Germany, I worked on "mir" from the beginning, did css and html, config-stuff, since I'm no java-coder, right now I work with rails a lot, volunteer at a local not-for-profit-provider in Berlin, called so36.net ira 10 19:19:27 ryan gus ira 10 19:19:30 * gus -> imc-brasil/collective sao paulo, was also at techmeet 2006. ira 10 19:19:37 ryan gdm ira 10 19:19:52 ryan idle, elisa? ira 10 19:20:08 ryan idle, ekes? ira 10 19:20:30 ryan idle, Devin? ira 10 19:20:38 toya ping ekes ira 10 19:20:42 * toya pinging thsi ppl ira 10 19:21:22 ryan hmm ok clara is idle, i think. clara? ira 10 19:21:22 Devin devin -- in Chapel hill now, have helped with tech in Richmond VA and ira 10 19:21:22 Devin tampa bay, am a professional programmer, interested in code. have worked with ira 10 19:21:23 Devin dadaIMC, started to get into sf-active but haven't really groked it yet; ira 10 19:21:41 ryan chrisc? ira 10 19:21:56 ryan boud ira 10 19:22:03 boud boud - imc poland volunteer, our local city Torun is about to organise as a local city imc - we expect to use samizdat http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Devel/SamizdatEngine (ruby based inymedia CMS which has optional wiki for contributors) - the idea of joining forces sounds good to me. An "alternative" de-facto-indymedia in poland uses drupal. end. ira 10 19:22:07 ryan bertagaz ira 10 19:22:10 * bertagaz from nantes, france, involved in some indy tech working groups and his local IMC (which is trying to switch from this awfull spip-indy ;]) </end> ira 10 19:22:17 ryan angdraug ira 10 19:22:19 angdraug I'm angdraug: author of Samizdat CMS (Ruby), Debian developer, tech for IMC Belarus (running Samizdat), now in Sheffield UK. end. ira 10 19:22:25 ryan Alster ira 10 19:22:41 * boud away - back in 5 minutes ira 10 19:22:55 ryan Alster! ira 10 19:23:13 bertagaz tsss ira 10 19:23:16 bertagaz hi angdraug :] ira 10 19:23:22 ryan A-Kaser ira 10 19:23:25 angdraug bertagaz: hi! ira 10 19:23:48 ryan idle, simon seems idle... ira 10 19:23:54 ryan PseudoPunk ira 10 19:23:56 A-Kaser ? ira 10 19:23:59 * alex (name@localhost) gehitu da #cms ira 10 19:24:06 PseudoPunk I'm Bart from Belgium and sf-active coder. end ira 10 19:24:12 ryan A-Kaser, give an intro ira 10 19:24:13 alex argh, that's what i missed.. ira 10 19:24:20 Alster i'm alster, take part in a couple IMC tech working groups, am located in hamburg, germany. more about me at http://sarai.indymedia.org/~alster ira 10 19:24:30 ryan pietro ira 10 19:24:43 ryan pietro seems idle, how about patrick? ira 10 19:24:44 A-Kaser I'm Francois from Belgium, I have some servers used in mirror ira 10 19:24:52 ryan i think its too early for patrick, 1pm ira 10 19:24:58 Zapata lol ira 10 19:25:00 toya lol ira 10 19:25:36 ryan occam? ira 10 19:26:02 ryan ok how about mtoups? ira 10 19:26:26 ryan mat? ira 10 19:26:45 ryan ian ira 10 19:26:46 ryan ..? ira 10 19:26:55 Zapata alex ira 10 19:26:56 * alex is from imc germany. i do tech stuff, some Mir-documentations and use Mir a lot :) ira 10 19:26:56 ryan alex: you want to give an intro?? ira 10 19:27:13 alex i tried pushing indymedia 2.0 at PGA ira 10 19:27:13 ian hi ira 10 19:27:16 alex done ira 10 19:27:17 ryan ok fine, thats it ira 10 19:27:26 ryan oh alright, ian - give an intro ira 10 19:27:35 ian hi, i'm ian with san francisco imc ira 10 19:27:46 ian i do some tech stuff, but would mostly help with design and content stuff ira 10 19:27:50 ian indymedia 2.0++++ ira 10 19:27:52 ian done ira 10 19:28:13 ryan ok, so first we have clarification of the proposal ira 10 19:28:16 ryan zapata, you want to do this? ira 10 19:28:28 ryan just talk and signify that you're done with "end" ira 10 19:28:36 ryan then we can do some kind of ordered Q&A if necessary ira 10 19:28:38 ryan Zapata: go ira 10 19:28:47 * boud back ira 10 19:29:46 Zapata so... ira 10 19:30:22 Zapata during the techmeet in Sao Paulo, a group of indymedia-affiliated techies have discussed a proposal on the future of indymedia CMSes ira 10 19:30:59 Zapata given the structural understaffedness of the various codebases ira 10 19:31:30 Zapata as well as the fact that, feature-wise, the world outside is way ahead of us (see for instance sites such as youtube) ira 10 19:32:06 Zapata the idea is to, instead of developing multiple indymedia-specific CMSes, to look for a single non-indymedia CMS and focus on customizing it for indymedia ira 10 19:32:35 Zapata a more detailed proposal text is available on http://techmeet.sarava.org/English/CMSProposal ira 10 19:32:48 Zapata I presume most people here have read it... ira 10 19:33:26 Devin ... ira 10 19:33:34 Zapata I've already asked several people not present in sao paulo what their opinion was... I would also like to give the opportunity to people here to vent their opinions ira 10 19:33:49 Zapata ask questions... ira 10 19:33:53 Zapata and so on ira 10 19:33:54 Zapata end ira 10 19:34:13 ryan ok so just do some like /me wants to talk ira 10 19:34:18 ryan and i'll keep an order of speakers ira 10 19:34:43 ryan are there specific questions related to clarifying what is in the CMSProposal? ira 10 19:34:50 ryan i'll give a few minutes for ppl to read/ask ira 10 19:35:03 * txopi wants to talk ira 10 19:35:37 ryan ok txpoi.. ira 10 19:35:40 txopi i think this is a very good proposal ira 10 19:36:21 txopi i wonder if we have clear that althought we choose an cms out side the customization work probably will be quite big ira 10 19:36:28 * elijah (elijah@localhost) gehitu da #cms ira 10 19:37:14 txopi and when new versions and features are added tho the codebase, the mantain work will be similar to the work we/you are doing to mantain this indymedia's cms ira 10 19:37:14 * boud has a question ira 10 19:37:15 txopi end ira 10 19:37:24 * Zapata would like to respond to txopi ira 10 19:37:30 ryan Zapata, respond, then boud ira 10 19:37:51 Zapata the amount of customization work will depend a lot on the exact CMS we would choose ira 10 19:38:09 Zapata but naturally, we won't find a CMS that will be fit for all CMSes straight out of the box ira 10 19:38:43 Zapata one part of the proposal is also that we would join forces... i.e. developers / admins /templaters from different codebases would work together on 1 project ira 10 19:38:44 * skep (skep@localhost) gehitu da #cms ira 10 19:38:58 Zapata and generally, the real benefits from this proposal will be reaped in the future, not in the present ira 10 19:39:24 Zapata the maintainenance work in the future will, hopefully, be a lot less than what we do now: right now we also must maintain basic CMS functionality, not just indymedia-specific functionality ira 10 19:39:24 Zapata end ira 10 19:39:56 * bertagaz raises ira 10 19:40:05 ryan boud ira 10 19:40:22 * init raises too ira 10 19:40:28 boud question: Road map 1. 2nd paragraph: i'm wondering how strict "non-indymedia" CMS means - does this mean all CMSes other than mir/sf-active/dada ? In other words, will we exclude mir/sf-active/dada from the list of candidate CMSes, or will we exclude all CMSes which are listed on http://docs.indymedia.org/view/Devel ? end ira 10 19:40:52 ryan mm i can answer ira 10 19:40:54 * Zapata would like to respond to that (unless ryan wnats to do it) ira 10 19:41:04 * Zapata says go ahead... :-) ira 10 19:41:07 ryan i dont think it necessarily excludes indymedia CMS'es ira 10 19:41:19 ryan i was going to put sf-active on the list to evaluate just for due course ira 10 19:41:37 ryan maybe we'll do that with the others but a key requirement is a wide developer base ira 10 19:41:53 ryan which imc cms'es are kind of lacking, but we can discuss ira 10 19:41:58 ryan zapata, right? ira 10 19:42:03 ryan end ira 10 19:42:09 * Zapata raises in response ira 10 19:42:19 ryan go on zapata, then bertagaz ira 10 19:42:58 Zapata I'm a bit more pessimistic, I think indymedia CMSes really lack the vitality of a sustainable project ira 10 19:43:08 Zapata but it's ok to consider them anyway I guess ira 10 19:43:09 Zapata end ira 10 19:43:11 Devin are we waiting or did i get disconnected? ira 10 19:43:29 ryan bertagaz ira 10 19:43:32 ryan Devin: waiting? ira 10 19:43:36 bertagaz do you know what is the opinion of sf-active people about that? Would they join this initiative? Keep developping sf-active? I'm not sure they are here ATM... ira 10 19:44:11 bertagaz oh ira 10 19:44:12 bertagaz end ira 10 19:44:13 bertagaz :] ira 10 19:44:14 PseudoPunk bertagaz: if the cms proposal comes through I jump on the train for sure. ira 10 19:44:34 * boud s/train/bandwagon/ ;) ira 10 19:44:38 ryan same here, i'm willing to help get the cms proposal activated also ira 10 19:44:54 bertagaz ok so now I know who is sf-active people ;] ira 10 19:45:01 ryan ok end of speaker's list. anyone else have questions/comments specifically towards clarifying the proposal? ira 10 19:45:11 Zapata init! ira 10 19:45:22 toya :39 * init raises too ira 10 19:45:22 init I think the that it will be very hard to find a maching existing CMS, we would have to adapt our "fork" each time the original code changes. We have accumulated a lot of knowledge about what it is exactly that WE need. There is a lot of mistakes, we would not do again. So maybe it'll be less work to start a new codebase from scratch, using existing frameworks, like Zope or Ruby-on-Rails. But the evaluation will show that. Apart from that I would like to take a step back ira 10 19:45:38 ryan oops, sorry ira 10 19:45:39 ryan thanks toya ira 10 19:45:45 * Zapata raises in response ira 10 19:45:50 ryan zapata then ira 10 19:45:55 init but that is more stuff a wiki-diskussion ira 10 19:46:21 init questions like what IS our Date, what jobs do the server nodes in the imc-network do. ira 10 19:46:46 init like posting, moderation, storage, backup, db-backup, mirror.... ira 10 19:47:05 init more like imc like a protokoll, not just one software. ira 10 19:47:21 init shout have prepared a text on that , sorry... end ira 10 19:47:31 Zapata ok ira 10 19:47:43 Zapata as I asid before, a perfect match will be impossible to find ira 10 19:48:03 Zapata but as close a match as possible will be very useful I hope ira 10 19:48:24 * zak raises in response ira 10 19:48:31 Zapata I wouldn't think we should fork the cms, we should find a CMS where customizations are easily made and are maintainable across different versions of the CMS ira 10 19:48:54 Zapata the knowledge we have accumulated we can employ both in the customizations but also in the original CMS, if applicable: nothing stops us from contributing to the CMS ira 10 19:49:07 Devin (got it now in bulk - thanks) ira 10 19:49:16 Zapata zope (I'm less familiar with ruby) might be an excellent candidate to start from... ira 10 19:49:22 Zapata it's definitely a candidate for me ira 10 19:49:46 Zapata on the general imc-network issue, I agree there's a lot of reflection and re-organization that might be done, but... ira 10 19:49:51 Devin ruby is fun ira 10 19:50:01 Zapata the future of indymedia will include the need for a CMS ira 10 19:50:30 Zapata so we'll have to cover that ira 10 19:50:32 Zapata and the rest should be discussed in a different meeting I'd say ira 10 19:50:34 Zapata end ira 10 19:50:39 ryan zak ira 10 19:50:47 zak i think a lot of this will become clearer once we actually begin matching the features of existing CMSes to our requirements. ira 10 19:50:49 zak but i'm not sure what we need is *that* out of the ordinary ira 10 19:51:05 * toya raises her hand ira 10 19:51:37 zak i'd hope that any patching won't be that widescale, and that a lot of it will be just about providing an easy way to get the site structures we want, plus a few security measures like removing ip logging ira 10 19:51:42 zak end ira 10 19:51:45 ryan toya ira 10 19:52:11 * nessie (nessie@xxx.xxx) gehitu da #cms ira 10 19:52:12 * Devin raise hand ira 10 19:52:33 * angdraug raises ira 10 19:52:36 toya not sure if we should start to discuss thigns related with how w ewill do it (zope, ruby etc) righ tnow or not ira 10 19:52:39 * clara has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) ira 10 19:53:07 toya end ira 10 19:53:17 ryan devin ira 10 19:54:27 Devin from a coding perspective, it is (almost) always the case ira 10 19:54:51 Devin that after several years, there is alot one would do differently, a fresh start can often be a good thing ira 10 19:55:17 Devin I don't think a switch is really throwing away -- we keep the experience, and gain the help / interaction with wider community. ira 10 19:55:34 Devin basically speaking in favor, but want to be sure and honor the work of many in past ira 10 19:55:34 Devin end ira 10 19:55:42 ryan angdraug ira 10 19:55:49 angdraug we need to add open-minded developer community to the list of requirements ira 10 19:55:55 angdraug I'm concerned about being carried away by the tide of a project with wide developer base and goals different from ours ira 10 19:55:59 angdraug I'm also concerned about technical goodies getting ahead of social features of our software ira 10 19:56:00 angdraug end ira 10 19:56:10 * elijah raises hand ira 10 19:56:11 * Zapata raises in response ira 10 19:56:11 ryan ah yeah, i would add that in... that one thing i want to watch for ira 10 19:56:23 ryan are projects which are obvious attempts at making a company ira 10 19:56:37 ryan even if its a volunteer project now ira 10 19:56:59 ryan which means we have to scope out the core developers for these projects ira 10 19:57:05 ryan Zapata, and then elijah ira 10 19:57:29 * fernao (fernao@localhost) gehitu da #cms ira 10 19:57:34 Zapata the character of the developer base for the CMS should imo certainly be part of a requirement... ira 10 19:57:46 Zapata but a discussion of the requirements list will be a later item in this meeting ira 10 19:57:50 PseudoPunk ls ira 10 19:57:59 Zapata the idea behind this proposal isn't about technical goodies ira 10 19:58:07 nessie hi. I'm nessie from SF-IMC. I just tuned in to see what you all were up to. Don't mind me. I'm just observing. ira 10 19:58:14 Zapata it's about sustainable development, maintenance and support for our CMS needs ira 10 19:58:48 Zapata one of the reuslts of the low sustainability of the current efforts is, imo, that we do not have a lot of time to add features ira 10 19:59:17 Zapata and are thus lagging behind commercial efforts such as youtube ira 10 19:59:23 * bunny (bunny@localhost) gehitu da #cms ira 10 19:59:40 Zapata which is certainly a reason why a lot of our target audience uses youtube to post their activism videos ira 10 19:59:48 Zapata end ira 10 19:59:53 * RobBoston raises in response ira 10 20:00:01 ryan ok elijah, then RobBoston ira 10 20:00:01 elijah on the issue of starting from scratch: ira 10 20:00:02 elijah (1) many experience programmer will tell you that ira 10 20:00:02 elijah rewriting their code was the best thing that ever ira 10 20:00:02 elijah happened. the second time you actually understand the ira 10 20:00:02 elijah problem, and are not weighed down by past mistakes. ira 10 20:00:03 elijah (2) when considering what to do, it should be based on the ira 10 20:00:06 elijah list of needs, not based on preconceptions on what will be ira 10 20:00:08 elijah easiest. ira 10 20:00:30 elijah (3) i do not like the idea of saying "we know what we want, but we don't have the labor, so we will use something crappy" ira 10 20:00:41 * Zapata raises in response ira 10 20:00:47 elijah i would rather identify what we want, then say: ok, how can we get there? ira 10 20:00:51 elijah end ira 10 20:00:59 ryan RobBoston, then Zapata in response to elijah ira 10 20:01:44 RobBoston Zapata: Maybe I don't understand the distinction you just made but I think 'technical goodies' is right up there with sustainability and responding to user needs. Getting Web 2.0 architecture integrated is as necessary (like YouTube, as you did say) as security if we are to remain a viable new source. ira 10 20:02:35 * zak also has a response to elijah ira 10 20:02:36 RobBoston It's responding to user wants in addition to needs. But that security and sustainability is alleviated if we pick up an existing CMS. ira 10 20:02:38 RobBoston end ira 10 20:02:47 ryan zapata, you have the floor ira 10 20:02:57 Zapata I agree fully with RobBoston ira 10 20:03:25 Zapata on elijah's remarks: ira 10 20:03:41 Zapata I'm a lot more pessimistic on rewrites from scratch: ira 10 20:03:58 Zapata those tend to be open-ended projects with little certainty of completion ira 10 20:04:13 * ga (ga@localhost) gehitu da #cms ira 10 20:04:34 Zapata also, I would like to stress that I'm looking for a pragmatic and practical solution to get out of the very stressfull situation we are (or at least I am) in ira 10 20:04:50 * chrisc hi ira 10 20:04:52 Zapata CMS maintainenance and support is really very time consuming for me now ira 10 20:05:19 Zapata and I hope we can create a different situation that will be easier to sustain ira 10 20:05:21 Zapata end ira 10 20:05:32 ryan alright so... ira 10 20:05:46 * txopi wants to talk ira 10 20:05:58 <ryan> ok txopi, then we'll have a last chance for Q&A ira 10 20:06:16 * elijah has brief clarifying point. ira 10 20:06:40 txopi i think it is too soon to decide anything about start from the scrach vs. customize an existing cms ira 10 20:07:22 txopi i think we should analyze what we want exactly and how much the existing cms's fit out needs ira 10 20:07:22 * Devin question ira 10 20:07:44 * Zapata raises in response ira 10 20:07:55 txopi after doing that we can decide if it is worth to start from zero or not ira 10 20:07:56 txopi end ira 10 20:08:13 ryan elijah, Devin, Zapata ira 10 20:08:25 elijah there are two separate issues: ira 10 20:08:26 elijah (1) what will help current indymedia situation? ira 10 20:08:26 elijah (2) what will keep indymedia relevent for the next five ira 10 20:08:26 elijah years? ira 10 20:08:26 elijah perhaps separate discussion threads and separate solutions. ira 10 20:08:27 elijah end ira 10 20:08:29 * Devin withdraw ira 10 20:08:37 Zapata ok ira 10 20:09:08 <Zapata> I agree with txopi that, may the search for an existing CMS prove fruitless, we may consider rewriting one from scratch (or start from an existing indy CMS) ira 10 20:09:17 * zak withdraws ira 10 20:09:33 * boud has clarifying question ira 10 20:10:09 Zapata however, finding an existing non-indy well maintained CMS will be highly preferable imo ira 10 20:10:09 Zapata in response to elijah: ira 10 20:10:11 Zapata I think in indymedia we never get to issues such as (2) ira 10 20:10:11 Zapata we're not in that luxury :-( ira 10 20:10:13 Zapata end ira 10 20:10:19 ryan boud? ira 10 20:10:48 * init has a remark ira 10 20:10:50 * zak (irc@localhost) has left #cms ira 10 20:11:06 * zak (irc@localhost) gehitu da #cms ira 10 20:11:34 boud it's just the term "indy CMS" - zapata seems to be the main person using it, but it's a bit confusing - tikiwiki and twiki are indymedia cmses according to Devel/WebHome, but i think what zapata actually means here is more like "sf-active/mir/dada" - so this is just a question about clarity... ira 10 20:11:40 boud end ira 10 20:11:43 ryan init ira 10 20:12:02 init I think that the "mir"-problem (to few coders) is mostly a java problem, I think new technologies like web-frameworks enable much more ppl to help with development. ira 10 20:12:05 init end ira 10 20:12:14 * Zapata raises in response ira 10 20:12:19 ryan go ahead ira 10 20:12:39 Zapata on boud: if imcs wish to use tikiwiki and twiki, they're free to do so ofcourse ira 10 20:12:46 * zert (zert@xxx.xxx) gehitu da #cms ira 10 20:12:48 Zapata with indy CMS I mean the CMSes we actively develop ira 10 20:12:56 Zapata and we being mostly me and the sf-active people ira 10 20:13:10 Zapata dada is, if I understand correctly, without maintainer at the moment ira 10 20:13:14 Zapata on init ira 10 20:13:32 Zapata the state of sf-active, a php solution, disproves your point I'd say ira 10 20:13:39 * angdraug has another agenda comment ira 10 20:13:45 Zapata though I admit, being java-based doesn't make mir's situatiuon any easier ira 10 20:13:46 Zapata end ira 10 20:13:52 * boud raises in response ira 10 20:14:12 ryan one comment -- to be fair, sf-active might have messed up by trying to write our own framework instead of using a wider-developed one ira 10 20:14:19 ryan angdraug and then boud in response ira 10 20:14:32 angdraug can we assess what resources we have? ira 10 20:14:34 * shane (clack@localhost) gehitu da #cms ira 10 20:14:47 angdraug as in, who wants and is able to work with what technologies? ira 10 20:14:48 angdraug end ira 10 20:14:55 ryan boud ira 10 20:15:38 * zak raises ira 10 20:15:42 * Devin will work on whatever decided if possible; very experienced in perl, fairly in php, enjoying learning ruby ira 10 20:15:54 boud If we use the term "we" in this way, then it seems to me that "we" = sf-active/dada/mir people and excludes many other indymedia developers/admins/templaters - IMHO if we do not look at the whole indymedia network, then we are already reducing who "we" are and reducing the number of us who can work together. Maybe i'm just being pedantic, but it seems to me important to remember that we're a big wide network. end. ira 10 20:16:11 * Zapata raises in response ira 10 20:16:13 * init want's to clarify that speaking of "web-frameworks" I thought of zope/RoR not php. ira 10 20:16:59 ryan zak, zapata ira 10 20:18:05 zak re frameworks: this is probably a middle road between "existing cms" and "from scratch" that would be a good fallback if there isn't already a suitable cms, rather than writing the whole web framework ourselves. ira 10 20:18:07 zak end ira 10 20:18:28 ryan zapata ira 10 20:18:44 * Zapata agrees with zak and acknowledges init's point, although my point also stands imo :-) ira 10 20:18:46 Zapata on boud's remark ira 10 20:18:54 Zapata this proposal has been made because of a concrete situation: ira 10 20:19:02 Zapata a situation that is unsustainable ira 10 20:19:08 Zapata this happened to be my personal situation ira 10 20:19:17 Zapata I discussed it with others, and they seemed to agree ira 10 20:19:18 * Alster_ (alster@localhost) gehitu da #cms ira 10 20:19:29 * briks (briks@localhost) gehitu da #cms ira 10 20:19:32 Zapata I didn't discuss it with everyone, but ofcourse anyone who wants to join is welcome ira 10 20:19:56 Zapata I do not however feel the need to come to a solution that is acceptable or desirable by everyone ira 10 20:20:00 Zapata end ira 10 20:20:02 RobBoston *twinkle* ira 10 20:20:20 * Alster has quit (Killed (NickServ (Ghost: Alster_!alster@localhost))) ira 10 20:20:26 ryan on that note, ira 10 20:20:35 ryan lets move on to the proposed action going forward with an evaluation ira 10 20:20:38 ryan zapata, could you talk about this? ira 10 20:20:42 * Alster_ orain Alster bezala ezaguna ira 10 20:20:46 Zapata ok ira 10 20:20:47 Zapata so... ira 10 20:21:00 Zapata there would seem to be two important steps to take ira 10 20:21:15 Zapata 1. would be to add structure, more on that later ira 10 20:21:23 Zapata 2. would be to actually look for candidate CMSes ira 10 20:21:40 Zapata I would suggest to do 2. in the following manner: ira 10 20:22:27 Zapata * We start here with going through the requirements lists and add proper definitions, sanitize the list add to it, delete from it, etc ira 10 20:22:43 Zapata * We have a brainstorm sessions to get to a (first) list of candidate CMSes ira 10 20:23:15 * zak raises ira 10 20:23:22 Zapata * Volunteers go about reviewing these CMSes by holding them against the requirements list and reporting on this ira 10 20:23:37 Zapata * We have a follow up IRC meetings to discuss these results and to decide how to go from there ira 10 20:23:43 Zapata On the structure: ira 10 20:24:09 Zapata * Right now, we use the techmeet.sarava.org wiki, it would be nice to switch to docs.indy or so, but it isn't up yet afaik ira 10 20:24:15 Zapata * It would be nice to have a mailing list ira 10 20:24:22 Zapata * It would be nice to have regular irc meetings ira 10 20:24:23 Zapata end ira 10 20:24:25 ryan note -> http://techmeet.sarava.org/English/CMSWhatWeWant ira 10 20:24:50 ryan what we did in sao paulo is tried to be comprehensive in deciding on "must-have" functionality ira 10 20:25:01 ryan so this can be the basis of evaluating candidate CMS'es ira 10 20:25:07 Zapata there's also http://techmeet.sarava.org/English/CMSWhatWeHave ira 10 20:25:11 ryan zapata has made a template of what this will look like ira 10 20:25:18 txopi note -> that page is what we want (and we still don't have) ira 10 20:25:28 ryan that can be found here -> http://techmeet.sarava.org/English/CMSSurveyList ira 10 20:25:29 * boud notes that seems to be points 3 4 5 6 7 8 of the agenda rolled together ira 10 20:25:49 ryan boud, just giving an overview ira 10 20:26:18 ryan so i suggest we begin by going through http://techmeet.sarava.org/English/CMSWhatWeWant ira 10 20:26:24 Zapata well ira 10 20:26:28 ryan and making sure this is correct, as it will be the foundation of the evaluation template ira 10 20:26:37 Zapata I'd say let's do http://techmeet.sarava.org/English/CMSWhatWeHave first ira 10 20:26:43 Zapata the list of current features ira 10 20:27:03 ryan alright, that doesnt really require discussion. zapata, you want to run through that how you want? ira 10 20:27:11 ryan then i'll moderate the "what we want" discussion ira 10 20:27:21 Zapata so, in sao paulo we compiled two lists ira 10 20:27:39 Zapata the "what we have list": the features existing in the current indy CMSes we know (mostly mir and sf-active) ira 10 20:28:06 Zapata the idea is that these features are absolute requirments: we'll have to have them before we can switch ira 10 20:28:22 Zapata ofcourse these do not need to be present in the CMS per se, we might make them part of the customziation process ira 10 20:28:30 Zapata but ofcourse the more there are out-of-the-box, the better ira 10 20:28:43 Zapata and, it should ofcourse be conveniently possible to add them if they aren't already there ira 10 20:29:12 Zapata the second list consists of existing wishes by IMCs, we'd like to have them in the near future ira 10 20:29:16 Zapata so... ira 10 20:29:41 Zapata let's walk through the items on http://techmeet.sarava.org/English/CMSWhatWeHave one at a time ira 10 20:29:56 Zapata clarify them, perhaps change them... and at the end, perhaps add new requirements ira 10 20:30:21 Zapata though, I think important for the process to keep this list as brief as possible ira 10 20:30:37 Zapata since more requirements to cover also means a harder search/customization process, etc ira 10 20:30:51 Zapata the first requirement ira 10 20:30:54 Zapata anonymous open publishing ira 10 20:30:59 Zapata speaks for itself ira 10 20:31:08 Zapata so let's quickly move ot the netxt ira 10 20:31:17 Zapata "distributed content storage" ira 10 20:31:33 Zapata if one looks at mir right now, it's easily possible to make multiple mirrors... ira 10 20:31:42 Zapata by simply using an apache and rsync combination ira 10 20:31:45 * zak raises ira 10 20:31:56 Zapata this facilitates the ability to deal with a lot of hits ira 10 20:32:17 Zapata I, however, think a new cms doesn't necessarily have to do it in the same manner: ira 10 20:32:39 Zapata I would be satisfied with a possibility to make multiple "light" mirrors, not necessarily static mirrors ira 10 20:32:41 Zapata go ahead, zak ira 10 20:33:04 zak there are different meanings that "distributed content storage" can have, as you say ira 10 20:33:39 * Devin raises ira 10 20:33:48 Zapata what is meant here is the mir mirroring feature ira 10 20:33:49 zak while mir has the ability to create multiple caches of the html pages easily, these aren't sufficient to recreate the site if the primary server goes down ira 10 20:33:56 * init raises ira 10 20:34:15 zak which would be provided by, for example, mysql-style database replication of the underlying content storage ira 10 20:34:47 zak for some cmses, a set of squid accelerators could provide a similar performance boost to the mirroring setup ira 10 20:34:48 zak end ira 10 20:34:54 ryan devin, init, back to zapata ira 10 20:35:13 * ryan notes to get on the CMS discussion mailing list, send a blank email to cms@techmeet.org ira 10 20:35:16 Devin good point zak. anonymous open publishing seems assumed, yet ira 10 20:35:33 Devin some dada installs store hashed IPs which could easily be cracked by feds, etc. ira 10 20:35:51 Devin so anonymous vs. anti-abuse measures needs prioritization, clarification ira 10 20:35:53 Devin end ira 10 20:35:57 ryan init ira 10 20:36:00 init Producing flat-html files is the one "top-feature" of mir, applied right, you can do much more with it than just mirroring, Just move the whole document-root to a CD-ROM (or zipfile) and use it for offline browsing ira 10 20:36:42 init I have been looking for that in many other CMSs none does it out of the box. would be sad to lose that. end ira 10 20:36:45 * zak raises in response to init ira 10 20:37:08 ryan zak ira 10 20:37:10 ryan then zapata ira 10 20:37:26 zak i agree it's useful, and have used it for offline demos myself in the past ira 10 20:38:09 init ...and it helps bridging the digital devide. ira 10 20:38:09 zak however, like most things, it also comes with drawbacks -- the most apparent being the long regeneration time required after redesigning a set of templates ira 10 20:38:28 zak but i'm not sure how deep a discussion of this we want to get into at this stage ira 10 20:38:30 zak end ira 10 20:38:46 ryan ok, back to zapata ira 10 20:38:50 Zapata on zak's first point: ira 10 20:38:57 Zapata the feature meant is the mir mirroring feature... ira 10 20:39:12 Zapata so I would suggest renaming the requirement to "easy mirroring capability" ira 10 20:39:32 * zak agrees ira 10 20:39:35 Zapata the other feature zak mentioned is, if I'm correct, on the "what we want"-list, since we don't have it right now ira 10 20:39:46 Zapata on devin: ira 10 20:39:56 * Anna (anna@localhost) gehitu da #cms ira 10 20:40:20 Zapata indeed the anonymous requirement is an excellent example of something that is very indymedia-specific ira 10 20:40:26 Zapata and very important for us ira 10 20:40:27 ryan ira 10 20:40:34 Zapata which explains why it's at the top of the list ;-) ira 10 20:40:38 Zapata on init ira 10 20:40:41 * chrisc raises ira 10 20:40:53 Zapata I would say that storing an imc on a cd is nice, but not a day-to-day requirement ira 10 20:41:01 Zapata indeed, very few cmses have this feature ira 10 20:41:12 Zapata but as zak says, there are drawbacks as well ira 10 20:41:27 Zapata I would still say that "easy mirroring" without requiring static mirrors is what we need ira 10 20:41:39 Zapata since this will cover the most important use of mir's static mirror feature ira 10 20:41:54 Zapata while your use can still be done by using a clever wget script or something similar ira 10 20:41:56 Zapata end ira 10 20:42:09 ryan well, back to the list, then :) ira 10 20:42:15 Zapata chrisc ira 10 20:42:18 Zapata is first ira 10 20:42:19 ryan oh ira 10 20:42:19 chrisc Bricolage, the Perl CMS, which runs www.theregister.co.uk and salon.com generates static content, however it don't have user accounts, anon publishing etc ira 10 20:42:22 chrisc end ira 10 20:42:38 ryan zapata.. ira 10 20:42:41 * chrisc http://www.bricolage.cc/ ira 10 20:42:45 Zapata the next requirement: syndication -out/in ira 10 20:42:54 Zapata most indymedia sites offer rss feeds ira 10 20:43:05 Zapata which are in high demand by users ira 10 20:43:12 Zapata some indymedia sites also import rss feeds ira 10 20:43:36 Zapata for instance indymedia.org uses it to come to a feature wire with features from all the different indymedia sites around ira 10 20:43:43 Zapata end ira 10 20:43:55 ryan ... ira 10 20:43:58 * RobBoston raises ira 10 20:44:03 Zapata go ahead ira 10 20:44:27 * boud syndication in/out is definitely a Good Thing ira 10 20:44:29 RobBoston Sorry, are we marking things down on the wishlist here as either 'would be nice' or 'essential.' Came to mind thinking of this; I' ira 10 20:44:35 RobBoston I'd say RSS would be essential ira 10 20:44:36 RobBoston end ira 10 20:44:41 Zapata in response: ira 10 20:44:42 ryan this isnt the wishlist ira 10 20:44:44 ryan this is what we have ira 10 20:44:46 Zapata these are all essential features ira 10 20:44:50 Zapata since we already have them ira 10 20:44:56 Zapata ok ira 10 20:45:00 Zapata the next requirments: ira 10 20:45:01 Zapata search ira 10 20:45:14 Zapata a no brainer... ira 10 20:45:16 * Alster raises ira 10 20:45:22 Zapata go ahead, alster ira 10 20:45:36 Alster I'm a bit irritated by this. ira 10 20:45:49 Alster You're saying the features we already have are essential. ira 10 20:45:56 Alster I don't think this is the case for all of them. ira 10 20:46:14 Alster We sure have a lot of featuresin some of the CMS' currently being used by IMCs which are not essential. ira 10 20:46:25 * Devin suggests you say so case-by-case as we discuss a feature ira 10 20:46:27 Alster ... and offten not being used either. ira 10 20:46:52 * zak agrees with devin ira 10 20:47:09 Alster so it would be better to make sure we have a deep looka t all the features currently provided by the several cms and sort out those which really are considered essential. ira 10 20:47:24 Alster it's well possible some are being missed right now, unless it has been done this way. ira 10 20:47:30 Alster end ira 10 20:47:41 Zapata I would agree with devin as well ira 10 20:47:52 Zapata are there any features I mentioned that you deem not essential? ira 10 20:48:21 Zapata also the list has been compiled according to your suggestions... some of mir's features are not on it for example, since no IMC uses it ira 10 20:48:28 Zapata end ira 10 20:49:02 Zapata shall I go on with features? ira 10 20:49:06 Alster No. I'm more afraid we're missing some which we already have, which are essential, but we're not aware of it, and which we may be missing in the future requirements list ira 10 20:49:08 ryan unless somsone has a response ira 10 20:49:26 * zak raises in response to alster ira 10 20:49:30 Alster the 'no' referred to "are there any features I mentioned that you deem not essential?" ira 10 20:49:32 Alster end ira 10 20:49:56 * boud raises on WhatWeHave ira 10 20:50:17 ryan zak, boud, zapata ira 10 20:50:18 zak i think we had "any other existing features" for discussion after this list anyway, so perhaps we can look at that further then? ira 10 20:50:20 zak end ira 10 20:50:44 ryan boud ira 10 20:50:46 * Alster is fine with zak's suggestion ira 10 20:51:04 boud we haven't got up it yet, but it seems to me that "send article to a friend" may not be essential - it seems turned off in most indymedias (i vaguely remember seeing it in use a few years ago) (maybe it was turned off because it was abused?) end ira 10 20:51:13 boud s/up it/up to it/g ira 10 20:51:43 Zapata let's discuss that feature when we get there ira 10 20:51:50 boud ok ira 10 20:51:56 Zapata I'll now list a number of features that I suspect are not controversial... ira 10 20:52:03 Zapata * The ability to create multiple instances ira 10 20:52:03 Zapata It should be possible to host multiple IMCs on a single server ira 10 20:52:03 Zapata * Multimedia handling ira 10 20:52:03 Zapata It should be possible to post images and videos, as these are used frequently by our user base ira 10 20:52:03 Zapata * Categories ira 10 20:52:05 Zapata It should be possible to organise content (i.e. postings) by category, region, type, etc ira 10 20:52:14 Zapata * Good performance on affordable hardware ira 10 20:52:14 Zapata Our often improvised equipment should be able to host the IMC sites ira 10 20:52:23 Zapata * customisability ira 10 20:52:52 Zapata IMCs should be able to organise their postings in a custom way. Also it should be easily possible to add indymedia customizations. ira 10 20:53:01 * Devin raises ira 10 20:53:05 Zapata go ahead ira 10 20:53:19 Devin "customisability" is over-broad term compared to others in list ira 10 20:53:44 Devin people will be using this list to evaluate -- hard to evalutate on broad terms ira 10 20:53:49 Devin possible to specify more? ira 10 20:53:50 Devin end ira 10 20:53:54 Zapata true, but it's also a broad requirement... ira 10 20:54:20 Zapata one of the sources of this requirment was mir's feature of flexible producer creation and templating ira 10 20:54:38 Zapata perhaps I should work on a text to clarify it more concretely... I'll work on that... in the meantime, let's go on ira 10 20:54:51 Zapata ok? ira 10 20:54:57 Devin yes, thanks ira 10 20:55:07 Zapata * internationalisation / translation ira 10 20:55:33 Zapata The indymedia network is global. A lot of different languages are spoken. A lot of IMCs work with multiple languages. ira 10 20:55:41 * zak raises ira 10 20:55:48 Zapata Translations of postings are a key tool in this ira 10 20:55:50 Zapata go ahead, zak ira 10 20:56:19 zak i'm not that familiar with the multi-language sites. however i think there are a lot of levels of internationalisation ira 10 20:56:30 * txopi wants to talk ira 10 20:56:43 zak and i think it's important that we identify which ones we already have (and so are essential) and which ones are still wish-list ira 10 20:56:44 zak end ira 10 20:56:57 <ryan> ok txopi ira 10 20:57:39 txopi i think internationalisation should be a different point ira 10 20:58:27 txopi usually this kind of features are clasified as localization (coins, hour formats...) and internationalization (languages...) ira 10 20:59:03 ryan ok, zapata can oyu mark that change? ira 10 20:59:04 txopi the tanslation feature is not very common and should be analyzed apart ira 10 20:59:05 ryan and lets keep going ira 10 20:59:06 txopi end ira 10 20:59:13 ryan we gotta get through this list because the next list is the real discussion ira 10 20:59:19 Zapata Ok ira 10 20:59:25 Zapata let me rephrase ira 10 20:59:29 Zapata internationalization ira 10 20:59:47 Zapata The ability to present an IMC site in multiple languages ira 10 20:59:59 Zapata for the navigational aspects ira 10 21:00:18 Zapata including the ability to easily add a supported language ira 10 21:00:20 Zapata translation ira 10 21:00:23 * Kameron (Kam@localhost) gehitu da #cms ira 10 21:00:44 * chrisc the CMS must do UTF-8, but these days I think most do already... ira 10 21:00:44 Devin navigational = localization = much easier than on-the-fly translation ira 10 21:00:46 Zapata The ability to allow users to anonymously translate postings ira 10 21:01:18 * nah has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) ira 10 21:01:19 * fernao has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) ira 10 21:01:20 Zapata both features exist and both features are used frequently, though internationalization is the more widely used ira 10 21:01:31 * PseudoPunk notes l10n is important too: 24h/12h times, d/m/y vs m/d/y, ... ira 10 21:01:58 Zapata anyway, I consider this to be one of the easier to understand requirements... ira 10 21:02:07 Zapata shall we go on? :-) ira 10 21:02:17 ryan yes ira 10 21:02:18 * txopi agrees ira 10 21:02:25 Zapata * comments ira 10 21:02:25 Zapata The ability to comment / add clarification / updates to an article is an essential feature on most IMC sites ira 10 21:02:25 Zapata * anti-abuse measures ira 10 21:02:25 Zapata Unfortunately, a lot of IMC's have to deal with a lot of abuse: spam, trolling, ddos attacks. The CMS should offer the tools to deal with this. ira 10 21:02:34 Zapata * easy moderation ira 10 21:03:10 Zapata moderation of open postings is one of the least favourite tasks in indymedia collectives. This should be as easy as possible. Think about removing spam postings, hiding racist postings entirely from sight (as is required in some countries) ira 10 21:03:19 Zapata * calendar ira 10 21:03:40 Zapata A lot of IMC sites have a calendar where people can post there activism events on ira 10 21:03:47 Zapata * features ira 10 21:04:10 * angdraug raises on calendar ira 10 21:04:13 Zapata Most IMCs work with an open newswire and a middle (feature) column with postings by the editorial collective. ira 10 21:04:16 Zapata go ahead, angdraug ira 10 21:04:26 angdraug how much of a calendar we want? ira 10 21:04:32 angdraug end ira 10 21:04:46 * Morten^Toft (k@localhost) gehitu da #cms ira 10 21:05:03 ryan this is just what we have ira 10 21:05:05 ryan not what we want ira 10 21:05:11 ryan zapata.. go on with the list ira 10 21:05:21 Zapata * documentation ira 10 21:05:32 Zapata We need a well documented CMS. ira 10 21:05:39 * zak raises ira 10 21:05:42 Zapata go ahead ira 10 21:06:26 zak i agree that's something we'd like... although i'm not sure how documented our existing ones are. is that a "what we have" or a "what we want"? ira 10 21:06:28 zak end ira 10 21:06:38 Zapata agree ira 10 21:06:42 ryan this is all "what we have" ira 10 21:06:44 * boud raises on calendar ira 10 21:06:57 ryan we need to save discussion of requirements/"what we want" for next topic ira 10 21:06:59 ryan boud? ira 10 21:07:29 boud i thought that the most used calendars right now are e.g. radicalendar and use either non-free software or non-free servers or both... ira 10 21:07:45 boud so i don't know if we already have it in a genuinely free software indymedia sense ira 10 21:07:47 boud end ira 10 21:07:48 ryan mm sf-active has a calendar built-in ira 10 21:07:52 ryan i think this refers to that ira 10 21:07:54 ryan zapata? ira 10 21:08:06 Zapata true ira 10 21:08:08 Zapata it's not in mir ira 10 21:08:22 Zapata it's sf-active's calendar we're talking about ira 10 21:08:26 boud ok ira 10 21:08:40 Zapata I'll go on ira 10 21:08:42 Zapata * send article to a friend ira 10 21:08:42 Zapata Speaks for itself ira 10 21:08:52 Zapata * scaling ira 10 21:08:52 Zapata It should be possible to deal with varying number of hits on sites. If the G8 comes to town, an IMC site may suddenly have to deal with hits an order of magnitutde bigger. The CMS should make it possible to deal with this. ira 10 21:09:00 Zapata send an article may not be that important ira 10 21:09:14 Zapata scaling is a part of two aforementioned requirements imo ira 10 21:09:17 * luisfelipe (luisfelip@xxx.xx) gehitu da #cms ira 10 21:09:19 Zapata I would suggest removing these two ira 10 21:09:31 * Devin agree ira 10 21:09:44 * zak agrees too ira 10 21:10:02 * gus _o/ about the send an article problem.. ira 10 21:10:05 * txopi wants to talk ira 10 21:10:14 Zapata go ahead, gus ira 10 21:10:52 * Alster agrees with removal of those, too ira 10 21:10:53 gus well, "send an article" option could be used to spam, like happened in imc paris ira 10 21:11:22 Zapata right, so you would agree to remove it from the requirements list :-) ira 10 21:11:31 gus i think that option is only good for features <end> ira 10 21:11:41 <Zapata> txopi? ira 10 21:11:45 txopi i'm absolutely agree about removing 'send article to a friend' from the list ira 10 21:11:54 ryan .... ira 10 21:11:56 ryan this is what we have ira 10 21:11:58 ryan not what we want ira 10 21:12:08 txopi i know ira 10 21:12:19 ryan so, to the extent 'send article' is something we have ... ira 10 21:12:21 ryan it stays on the list :) ira 10 21:12:23 txopi but this feature isn't really important ira 10 21:12:34 * zak raises ira 10 21:12:35 * Zapata raises ira 10 21:12:37 txopi mir, sf-active and other have a lot more features ira 10 21:12:58 txopi about scaling, i think it is important to keep it ira 10 21:13:06 * Zapata raises^2 ira 10 21:13:14 kwadronaut back online ira 10 21:13:18 txopi end ira 10 21:13:27 ryan ok, zak and then zapata ira 10 21:13:31 zak i think this is "what we have, that we aren't happy to lose" ira 10 21:13:36 zak on scaling... ira 10 21:13:52 zak i think it's a very broad term, as there are lots of ways in which a solution might scale or not ira 10 21:14:16 zak for instance, mir scales very well in terms of number of passive visitors due to the static mirroring capability ira 10 21:14:42 * Devin point of clarification: proposal was to merge concept of scaling into earlier "easy mirroring" ira 10 21:14:45 zak on the other hand, some of the producers don't scale that well as the size of the site increases ira 10 21:15:01 * Zapata in addition to Devin's point: and to "good performence on affordable hardware" ira 10 21:15:16 zak so i think we have to be specific on what ways our existing solutions scale well ira 10 21:15:44 * boud i think zak explained it well: 'i think this is "what we have, that we aren't happy to lose"' ira 10 21:15:51 zak re: affordable hardware -- experience with traven doesn't suggest we necessarily have that at the moment ira 10 21:15:53 zak end ira 10 21:16:07 ryan ok, so let me just throw in here.. ira 10 21:16:16 ryan whatever this list means exactly, we arent really going to refer to it again ira 10 21:16:20 ryan ever, probably ira 10 21:16:42 * sin^guia (sin^guia@localhost) gehitu da #cms ira 10 21:16:43 ryan so, zapata, anything else on this part? ira 10 21:16:56 ryan because then we can move to discussing requirements/evaluation list ira 10 21:17:20 Zapata I agree the discussions we have right now aren't very important. And we're already busy for 2 hours ira 10 21:17:25 Zapata I suggest we move on to the second list ira 10 21:17:26 ryan yeah ira 10 21:17:32 ryan alright, here we go ira 10 21:17:33 * txopi agrees ira 10 21:17:43 * zak raises before we move on ira 10 21:17:54 ryan .. zak? ira 10 21:17:58 zak we've talked quite a bit about existing mir and sf-active features ira 10 21:18:14 zak i just want to be sure we haven't missed features in eg dada, oscailt... ira 10 21:18:18 zak if anyone is familiar with them ira 10 21:18:19 zak end ira 10 21:18:21 * txopi raises ira 10 21:18:33 ryan well let's think of them and if so, and they are relevant enough to be on requirements list, we can add them there ira 10 21:18:46 ryan again, this list is just to have a discussion and we probably won't ever use it again ira 10 21:18:51 ryan so getting it perfect isnt a top priority ira 10 21:18:55 <ryan> txopi? ira 10 21:18:56 * Devin raise ira 10 21:19:03 * boud raises ira 10 21:19:05 txopi i'm not familiar with dada but i know that some features in the WhatWeWant list are present in dada right now ira 10 21:19:33 txopi for example licensing options ira 10 21:19:42 txopi and perhaps image galleries ira 10 21:20:01 txopi about social network, dada has the post polling feature ira 10 21:20:03 txopi end ira 10 21:20:26 ryan alright, uhhh devin and boud? comments that must be made before we move on? ira 10 21:20:35 Devin one feature in oscailt I like; not sure name; sub-regions of an IMC defined by ira 10 21:20:35 Devin geography in their case but could be defined by subject perhaps as well ira 10 21:20:46 Devin end ira 10 21:20:49 ryan boud ira 10 21:21:21 boud "user moderation - open editing" is a features we already have in an indymedia CMS - it's in samizdat and used by indymedia belarus and indymedia ukraine ira 10 21:22:00 ryan done? ira 10 21:22:02 boud so in the spirit of "what we have and don't want to lose", i guess we should add it ira 10 21:22:03 * zak thinks devin's point is covered by "categories", as are mir's regions and topics ira 10 21:22:04 boud end ira 10 21:22:08 ryan ok ira 10 21:22:14 ryan so ira 10 21:22:33 ryan the next part is a list of requirements and/or areas of evaluation ira 10 21:22:50 ryan so, take a look at http://techmeet.sarava.org/English/CMSSurveyList ira 10 21:23:07 ryan we would like to fill out this page with CMS'es and "evaluation owners" ira 10 21:23:31 ryan the evaluation owners would set up a demo of the CMS, allow others access to it on request, and then report-back to this group ira 10 21:23:45 ryan report-back about how the CMS did with each requirement/area of evaluation ira 10 21:23:56 ryan a template for this seen here -> http://techmeet.sarava.org/English/CMSSurveyReportTemplate ira 10 21:24:15 ryan so, we should go through this list and make sure these things are clear and consistent ira 10 21:24:20 ryan keeping in mind what this list is gonna be used for ira 10 21:24:38 ryan lets stop there for a second ira 10 21:24:43 ryan does that sound right to everyone? ira 10 21:25:12 * boud saw no objections so i added user moderation - open editing to WhatWeHave ira 10 21:25:31 zak we're talking about the list on http://techmeet.sarava.org/English/CMSWhatWeWant right? ira 10 21:25:56 ryan no ira 10 21:26:00 ryan er ira 10 21:26:01 ryan yes :) ira 10 21:26:02 ryan sorry ira 10 21:26:20 ryan but i think we go through them one-by-one ira 10 21:26:46 ryan ok well ira 10 21:27:05 ryan if there is nothing in general about that plan-of-action, lets go through the list ira 10 21:27:15 * zak is happy with that plan ira 10 21:27:38 ryan ok ira 10 21:27:51 * boud confused - are we working on WhatWeWant or CMSSurveyList now ? ira 10 21:27:51 * zak (irc@localhost) has left #cms ira 10 21:28:00 ryan boud, CMSWhatWeWant ira 10 21:28:02 * zak (irc@localhost) gehitu da #cms ira 10 21:28:05 boud ok ira 10 21:28:09 ryan alright so, lets start with the first item ira 10 21:28:17 ryan "User logins (networkwide?)" ira 10 21:28:26 ryan the idea here is that we would allow user registration ira 10 21:28:49 ryan so, users could own a username and authenticate with it which would allow users to have identities that are protected ira 10 21:29:08 ryan also, the idea was kicked around that it would be interesting to have the option of network-wide logins ira 10 21:29:30 ryan i.e. if nessie registers at sf.indymedia.org, he can then go to germany.indymedia.org and log in as nessie with the same password ira 10 21:29:47 * Alster would like to make a note on the evaluation process just introduced by ryan, sorry for being late. ira 10 21:30:05 ryan so, we want to evaluate CMS'es and understand how they handle user logins ira 10 21:30:09 ryan Alster - go ahead ira 10 21:30:15 * Alster is happy with the process, too, but notes that we must make sure CMSWhatWeHave is refactored to CMSWhatWeWant if CMSWhatWeHave will not be used as an evaluation factor in the future. ira 10 21:30:17 Alster end ira 10 21:30:26 * boud raises ira 10 21:30:34 * clara (clara@localhost) gehitu da #cms ira 10 21:30:47 ryan Alster - we have this one - http://techmeet.sarava.org/English/CMSWhatWeWant ira 10 21:30:59 ryan not sure what you mean? ira 10 21:31:51 Alster you said that CMSWhatWeHave will likely not be used in the future. If so, we should make sure that everything listed in this docuemnt, which is basically, what we have now and what we want to keep, is also found in the new document ira 10 21:32:02 Alster (CMSWhatWeWant) ira 10 21:32:04 Alster end ira 10 21:32:16 ryan sure, well, here is the opportunity to add anything at all (including stuff from there) to the WhatWeWant list ira 10 21:32:21 ryan boud? ira 10 21:33:05 * kwadronaut raises ira 10 21:33:20 boud the single user login could potentially go way beyond indymedia - i'm trying to find the official name for this right now, but the idea is that someone should not have to make a zillion different logins with different passwords on different services ira 10 21:33:43 boud IMHO we should add the option that someone uses this if s/he wants it... ira 10 21:33:43 luisfelipe boud: passport ? ira 10 21:33:44 boud end ira 10 21:33:54 ryan kwadronaut? ira 10 21:33:56 kwadronaut network wide based username could be nice but i suggest we odont focus on it, it has downsides too: wouldnt there be too many same usernames used by people at different locations like anna in nyc, germany and prolly some other places too ira 10 21:34:09 kwadronaut <end> ira 10 21:34:15 * angdraug raises in response ira 10 21:34:19 ryan angdraug ira 10 21:34:35 angdraug if we do network-wide logins, we sould do it jabber-style ira 10 21:34:45 * Devin raise on suggestion for current discussion process ira 10 21:34:51 angdraug that is, user registers with IMC A, and the as user@imc-a at other IMCs ira 10 21:34:56 angdraug end ira 10 21:35:08 * txopi wants to talk ira 10 21:35:10 ryan Devin? ira 10 21:35:16 * boud luisfelipe: i'm not sure... ira 10 21:35:19 Devin rather than worry what on what list now, ira 10 21:35:24 Devin someone is logging right? ira 10 21:35:35 ryan ?- i am logging ira 10 21:35:45 Devin we can discuss priroities for all items, someone can complie and present list for use in evaluations ira 10 21:35:49 * boud logging too ira 10 21:35:54 ryan yes, thats what we're doing! ira 10 21:35:56 Devin we can discuss or accept ira 10 21:35:58 Devin end ira 10 21:36:15 Devin sorry, seems like we are trying to get too definitive now, maybe jsut emk ira 10 21:36:17 Devin just me ira 10 21:36:18 Devin end ira 10 21:36:21 ryan right, so unless there is an objection to evaluating end-user logins, lets move on ira 10 21:36:25 <ryan> txopi? ira 10 21:36:53 txopi it think worlwide login isn't so inportant as in a pool that someone did a years or so ago, the imc readers use to read in general just one imc ira 10 21:37:34 * boud i think it's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenID i was thinking of ira 10 21:37:44 ryan ok, worldwide login is something to be evaluated, so opinions noted, we can move on to the next item ira 10 21:37:44 txopi the single sign-on (sso) feature is very difficult to reach and i think we should focus just on "user logins" ira 10 21:37:45 txopi end ira 10 21:38:01 ryan well, for instance, drupal supports this out-of-the-box ira 10 21:38:07 * nessie has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) ira 10 21:38:08 ryan so we want to know if a CMS has support for it or not ira 10 21:38:22 ryan the next item is user access controls ira 10 21:38:24 txopi ok, so separate the both features please ira 10 21:38:53 <ryan> txopi: ok, i think thats good (i can take these suggestions and modify the list after the mtg) ira 10 21:39:13 ryan user access controls means that users should log into the site and we can control if they are admins and can edit the newswires ira 10 21:39:21 ryan or if they are users and have publishing/etc rights only ira 10 21:39:36 ryan comments/suggestions? ira 10 21:40:21 ryan next two items are similar -- we need to evaluate the moderation system for newswires and give a good reportback on that ira 10 21:40:46 ryan to understand all of our options related to rankings/users and admins moderating/etc ira 10 21:40:53 ryan comments on this ..? ira 10 21:41:23 ryan excellent. next item is detailed ira 10 21:41:26 txopi wait ira 10 21:41:29 boud boud raises ira 10 21:41:41 <ryan> txopi, then boud ira 10 21:42:14 txopi if you don't mind i want to ask what really means "user moderation - open editing" (probably i don't understand because my poor english) ira 10 21:42:39 <luisfelipe> txopi: something wikilike I think ira 10 21:42:59 luisfelipe let the users moderate articles by making everything edittable ira 10 21:43:05 txopi mmh ira 10 21:43:09 ryan mmm well ira 10 21:43:11 ryan like this: ira 10 21:43:22 * boud agrees with luisfelipe ira 10 21:43:23 ryan 1) sf-active allows admins to moderate articles as local, global, open, etc ira 10 21:43:37 ryan 2) so, what kind of admin moderation can we set up with each CMS ira 10 21:43:58 ryan 3) also, what are the options with users ranking articles, like 1-10 ratings of quality ira 10 21:44:06 ryan 4) also, what are the options with users editing their own articles ira 10 21:44:18 ryan maybe this item should be expanded to include all these things ira 10 21:44:32 txopi i understand, ok ira 10 21:44:37 txopi thanks :-) ira 10 21:44:43 txopi we can go on ira 10 21:45:00 * boud still raised hand ira 10 21:45:05 ryan boud ira 10 21:45:16 boud just to say that "user moderation - open editing" is already part of WhatWeHave (samizdat) ira 10 21:45:19 boud end ira 10 21:46:02 ryan alright, so the next point ira 10 21:46:09 ryan is to add social networking features to indymedia ira 10 21:46:12 ryan including: ira 10 21:46:18 ryan 1) ability for users to maintain a profile about themselves ira 10 21:46:34 ryan 2) ability for users to keep track of articles/media they have published and edit it later after logging in ira 10 21:46:41 ryan 3) ability to have "friends" or a network with other users ira 10 21:46:58 ryan 4) ability to have their own page, i.e. sf.indymedia.org/users/username which contains profile, list of articles they've published, their friends, etc ira 10 21:47:04 ryan thats it, i think ira 10 21:47:06 ryan comments? ira 10 21:47:06 kwadronaut 4) ability for other users/admin to contact author? ira 10 21:47:10 kwadronaut oh that's in 4 ira 10 21:47:26 * txopi has no comments ira 10 21:47:59 angdraug aren't 1 and 4 same? ira 10 21:48:14 ryan well #1 refers to the page you edit the profile with ira 10 21:48:18 ryan #4 refers to page others see the profile on ira 10 21:48:21 ryan :) ira 10 21:48:59 ryan ok -- next item ira 10 21:49:00 * alex raises ira 10 21:49:03 ryan go ahead, alex ira 10 21:49:14 alex do we really want to change indy to a myspace for activists? ira 10 21:49:24 txopi xDD ira 10 21:49:25 ryan i do :) ira 10 21:49:26 alex i think indy should focus on anymous open publishing ira 10 21:49:34 * txopi raises ira 10 21:49:37 RobBoston i think it's a great idea ira 10 21:49:37 ryan ok, anonymous publishing is not going to go away ira 10 21:49:45 ryan but let me take a second here ira 10 21:49:45 alex there are other initiatives, crabgrass tries to be exactly a "myspace for activists" ira 10 21:49:51 ryan to add what was discussed in sao paulo ira 10 21:50:00 alex this raises a whole bunch of security issues here ira 10 21:50:15 alex and besides that, i think this should be discussed broader than just from techies ira 10 21:50:25 pietro alex: i dont think that is the goal of crabgrass ira 10 21:50:29 ryan wait, wait ira 10 21:50:33 ryan lets keep it ordered ira 10 21:50:41 <ryan> ryan, txopi, pietro ira 10 21:50:44 ryan alex, type 'end' when you are done ira 10 21:50:46 * alex not done ira 10 21:51:03 alex as i said, i really think we should focus on anonymous open publishing ira 10 21:51:34 alex i'm all for eche checking out possibilities to give users more direct power for their and other articles and even comments ira 10 21:51:42 alex but that's a big discussion, too ira 10 21:52:05 alex i think we can't add the point "profiles, social networking.." to the "WhatWeWant" list just like that ira 10 21:52:23 alex as a side note: are we still on track of the general meeting timeline or too far off? :) ira 10 21:52:26 alex done ira 10 21:52:35 <ryan> ok -> ryan, txopi, pietro ira 10 21:52:47 ryan so, this was discussed in-depth in sao paulo ira 10 21:53:04 ryan first, i think sf-imc has locally decided to go this route and is gonna start implementing something ahead of schedule of cms development ira 10 21:53:37 * boud alex: we're doing point 4., we sort of skipped 3. ira 10 21:53:38 ryan second, security is definitely a concern. cops get paid money to develop social network maps of activists and we would be creating these maps for them ira 10 21:53:52 ryan so, user education would have to be part of this ira 10 21:54:05 alex (users are dumb) ira 10 21:54:08 ryan third, anonymous publishing is not displaced by this feature set ira 10 21:54:29 ryan fourth, i want to expand a little on why this is wanted ira 10 21:54:42 ryan which is -- open publishing as we implement it now on IMC was innovative in 1999 ira 10 21:54:45 ryan it was innovative in 2000
